Covid-19

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4 years 1 month ago #550528 by kate
Replied by kate on topic Covid-19
There's a look at what the economy may look like post Covid-19 here

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4 years 1 month ago #550556 by Kilmoon
Replied by Kilmoon on topic Covid-19
For those of you struggling to understand the damage that has been caused and the thoughts that people will go through in realising that the 'cure' is a hell of a lot more damaging than the disease. It's an American insight, but the chap asks questions and lays out why the response from governments is going to cause more pain and deaths in the long run than a virus that we will learn to live with eventually.

www.pensford.com/why-flattening-the-curve-is-overrated/


I have chatted with a few business owners now, without a doubt all say the economy is stuffed from this lockdown and will be for years. Some are only holding on so that their employees get a 80% subsidised wage for the short-term but the jobs are effectively gone. A few indicated that if we have rolling lockdowns then they'll probably just close as they personally cannot afford to keep hemorrhaging money to keep employees off the dole. A family member has already had their boss discuss job losses (this is an essential service as well so open for business), and indicated that other owners in the same industry are merely waiting for the inevitable 'recession' to get rid of their employees. On the radio news this morning they said that Air NZ has signalled that thousands of employees will start to be fired from next week. Once that starts with the large corporates then the smaller SMEs, that employ the majority of people in NZ, will decide that it is now acceptable to fire/make redundant staff during this period.

The chap below gets it:

www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/1206680...ions-says-glen-herud

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4 years 1 month ago #550557 by Ruth
Replied by Ruth on topic Covid-19
But it's not just about stopping deaths, it's about stomping the life out of the health system if we just let it run. How many health professionals would you be prepared to see sacrificed when the hospitals are overwhelmed by sick people, who won't just quietly die at home but will be heaving in the corridors of the hospitals and clinics?
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4 years 1 month ago #550560 by Kilmoon
Replied by Kilmoon on topic Covid-19
Our health care system was up the shitter well before this virus came out of the woods. That a virus, albeit a bloody contagious one, means that they're threatening to fall over is more an indication of the decades of under-resourcing by various governments - that should be the topic of discussion: what is our healthcare system actually for? What level should it be resourced to? What should it be capable of when it needs to ramp up at the flick of a switch? Basically, what should it be capable of when it has had several months warning of what is coming. Because we had warning of what was coming. Failure to prepare when you see a storm on the horizon means that you're a bloody idiot and deserve the consequences.

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4 years 1 month ago #550561 by Ruth
Replied by Ruth on topic Covid-19
So we should all go back to normal and let those who will die as a consequence be damned?

No, that's not my preferred option. How about we don't shoot holes in what we have and support each other in this endeavour? It's going to be hard on everyone, many more than some. But if we open the doors it'll make even more of a mess. Or just as much mess. Who knows? At the moment this seems like the best option.
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4 years 1 month ago - 4 years 1 month ago #550562 by ZummersetGirl
Replied by ZummersetGirl on topic Covid-19
Hi Ruth.
The overflowing corridors and trollies happens in the UK every flu season especially as many people live alone and/or without family support.
The more people a country has the larger the number of people who will die from or with Covid19. The Covid could have killed them but because the state of their health any opportunistic infection would have also killed them.
The medics in Italy caught the Covid because they didn’t have enough PPE to protect themselves. They were overworked, inadequately protected and more vulnerable to the Covid so they caught it. Happens in flu season but they tend to recover because there are drugs to help whereas none of the anti-virals help with Covid.
The ethics of treating vs not treating Covid is fraught and there is no right answer. We do need to hear all sides of the argument so we are aware of what is being said.
I am a nurse and over my 40yr career I have nursed those who had everything including the kitchen sink thrown at the to save their lives and they still died - old and not so old. Others - again of all ages- were given supportive care only.
I nurse because I want to help people and it takes a little piece of my soul when my patients die. However, as human death seems to not be allowed or discussed now, it is very painful to see the trauma NZers are going thru to prevent what is after all a natural process that comes to us all even though most of us would rather ignore the possibility.
Last edit: 4 years 1 month ago by ZummersetGirl. Reason: Spell checker made a mistake

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4 years 1 month ago #550563 by Stikkibeek
Replied by Stikkibeek on topic Covid-19
It's better to travel hopefully, than to arrive!

Did you know, that what you thought I said, was not what I meant :S

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4 years 1 month ago #550564 by Mudlerk
Replied by Mudlerk on topic Covid-19
Wish people who think ill of our health care system had been born in the U.S...

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4 years 1 month ago #550565 by linrae
Replied by linrae on topic Covid-19
Good one Mudlark


Think Forward not sideways and backwards like some comments showing
Get up dressed follow the Fitness programme on TV 1 at 9am stimulate body

That helps the mind also

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4 years 1 month ago #550569 by Kilmoon
Replied by Kilmoon on topic Covid-19
Exactly ZummersetGirl

I had a discussion with a very good friend the other day. To be brutally honest her and her husband aren't going to make old age (whatever number you want to put on that is) due to their underlying health issues. No amount of medical care will extend their lives to the 70-90 age group. They're in their 50s, I'll be bloody surprised if they made it past their 60s. They, and all those like them, should have been the ones told to isolate, stay at home, food will be delivered, stay safe. The rest of us should have been allowed take our chances in the lottery of life and death and to at least keep the domestic economy ticking over to pay the inevitable bills that the government is racking up. But we aren't, are we? We have sacrificed our economy to try and save people that will have short lives anyway due to a combination of factors that all surround suppressed immune systems: old age, sickness, ill health due to modern life (obesity, smoking etc).

Harsh, but true.

This is a virus that we all will get to some degree. We can't vaccinate our way out of this when a vaccine is 18 months away. Are we all to stay isolated for 18 months? That will never occur - the government is going to have a hard time selling the message that our borders will remain shut for at least a year, good luck to them telling people that they have to stay inside their house for that long in a series of rolling lockdowns. People are already pushing the boundaries of what self-isolation means.

I see the military has a ready response unit ready to go at 2 hours notice.
www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavi...y-personnel-deployed

Why? What does the govt expect is going to happen? I also note that the article talks about:
Meanwhile, a source told Stuff requests had been made for personnel to cover camp security at Trentham Military Camp in Upper Hutt for two-to-four months, significantly longer than the four-week lockdown period announced by the Government.

Interesting length of time. When they announced a lockdown of only 4 weeks I turned to my work colleagues and told them to prepare for 6-8 weeks.....4 will do nothing.

As for the comment of:
Get up dressed follow the Fitness programme on TV 1 at 9am stimulate body.

I'm not a bloody child that needs hand held and arse wiped. I would however, like the govt to actually come out with the truth so that we can make decisions based on what their simulations are indicating. In the absence of such truth I will, accordingly, prepare for the worst case scenario that may occur (and have done so since early January when I saw how China was responding). As to the platitudes trotted out for the masses - good god people wake up and realise that you are being played.

More death and general misery will occur in the depression that is coming than will die from this disease. Yes, accidents, normal illness, and old age will take their usual allotment each year, now add to that the inevitable increase in suicide and euthanasists cashing out, add in those who will end up with suppressed immune systems due to poor living standards and poor food choices (kids and adults), add in the cost to the healthcare system as it struggles to cope for years with the increase of people needing care for simple ailments because they can't afford to go to a GP. Add in the fact that drug use (alcohol, tablets, whatever is selected) will explode amongst the population along with all the associated social costs. Crime will explode, not just amongst the usual criminal set, but also amongst non-criminals who will see it as okay to steal from an employer (I work hard and not paid enough $, it's my right, kids to feed and all those excuses). Add in the massive increase in benefit spending for the unemployed and the soon to be pensioners, a UBI would solve so much so that might come in. But how do you tell middle income earners on $1000 a week they have to drop to the current $200odd unemployment benefit? Expect more mortgagee sales, credit defaults, businesses falling over. Bets on who will be the first bank bailed out under our OBR rules will be? Tell savers, the majority of which are elderly, they have lost their savings to pay the debts of an insolvent bank - watch the howls of pain then (the usual "I've paid taxes all my life I'm owed..."). Get ready for massive spikes in interest rates. Taxes will take off, both income and business tax, and local ones like rates. Hyperinflation will most likely occur- so get ready for massive increases in the cost of things ($100 for a loaf of bread type stuff). Basically, go watch any documentary on the 1930s depression for an indication of how people and governments react when they have nothing left to lose.

Sorry for the rantish nature.....but the ones making the decisions about NZs way of life for the next decade or two will be long gone when we're all going through the pain of paying for the debt incurred to try and save, or extend, lives that are only going to be lost anyway.

Even Grant Ronbinson has finally admitted whats coming after this:
www.odt.co.nz/business/generations-kiwis-will-pay-recovery

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4 years 1 month ago #550572 by Anakei
Replied by Anakei on topic Covid-19
You are so right Kilmoon. Its a conversation I have tried to have with friends that they don't want to hear. I get the mawkish a "Its for the best" and "We are all in it together"

We have sleep walked into a police state where ordinary citizens going about their lawful business, can be stopped and questioned and warned to stay at home. Worse our own government has set up a website and encouraged citizens to spy and dobb in their neighbours - a move straight out on the Stasi playbook. And now there is talk of cancelling the general election. Seriously? In a democracy? Without a government of national unity?
And there isn't a murmur in the MSM

China must be rubbing its hands with glee. Never in it's wildest dreams could it have supposed that the entire western world would self implode. Watch where they step in and take control.

We should be using this lockdown time for preparation towards "herd immunity" Set up field hospitals, direct all infection cases there, quarantine all incoming residents, set up wrap around services for the old and sick and isolate them, and then let the rest of the country get back to work.

We will be paying for this in the years to come - no more new roads, or new schools, or new hospitals, we won't be able to afford them. Prepare for a decade of make do and mend. And then when another, worse infection comes along ( and it will happen) we will have used up and thrown away our social and financial capital on a damp squib.

Urban mini farmer and guerilla gardener

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4 years 1 month ago #550574 by kate
Replied by kate on topic Covid-19
In my view

A pandemic has hit and countries all over the world are trying to deal with it.

Most are listening to experts to find a way to stop the spread while gaining time for whatever comes next.

Most are enforcing some kind of lock down or social distancing. The same sort of social distancing that would occur naturally - if later - when the pandemic causes lots of fatalities and overruns the health systems.

Saying the health services should have been ready is irrelevant whether it's right or wrong. We have to deal with the current situation.

Even if NZ opened up tomorrow and decided to let the old and weak die the world would not return to the way it was. This is a catastrophic life-changing event and we have to live with it.

We are in this together. We are a society. We are the vectors for spreading the disease.

It's not pleasant and it's going to get worse, both in terms of deaths and economically.

There will always be a spectrum of opinions, and most people now seem to live in echo chambers where they hear only their own views echoed back to them. But people who don't agree are not sheep or asleep or stupid. They draw different conclusions from the same data and circumstance.

We will always have more things in common than we do that divide us. This is a very difficult time for everyone and it's come as a bolt from the blue. So I think the message is still the right one - be kind.

kia kaha

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4 years 1 month ago #550583 by Kilmoon

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4 years 1 month ago - 4 years 1 month ago #550587 by kate
Replied by kate on topic Covid-19
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero_Hedge

Over time, Zero Hedge expanded into non-financial analysis, advocating what CNN Business called an anti-establishment and conspiratorial worldview, and which has been associated with alt-right views and a pro-Russian bias. Other sources describe Zero Hedge as libertarian. Zero Hedge's non-financial commentary has led to a number of Site bans by various global social media platforms, some of which have been overturned (e.g. 2019 Facebook ban), while others remain (e.g. 2020 Twitter ban).


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Last edit: 4 years 1 month ago by kate.
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4 years 1 month ago #550596 by kate

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