scouring goats...

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7 years 1 week ago #531804 by bb
scouring goats... was created by bb
Help! two of my goats (kid and auntie) have scouring... the other (mum) is in perfect health. They were all drenched 10 days ago; at the time it seemed that mum and kid (6mo) were affected by worms, pale lids etc. Auntie seemed great. I drenched all three. Now the mother is fine, seems in perfect health, but the kid and the auntie have started scouring, and it's not getting better. This coincided with changing paddocks, but the one they are now is quite lush and had plenty more feed in it than where they came from. But maybe different diet? They are eating but are beginning to lose weight I think... I have ketol... would that help? What else...

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7 years 1 week ago #531805 by kai
Replied by kai on topic scouring goats...
Make sure whatever you are drenching them with is suitable for barbers pole worm. Not all drenches are. I lost several goats because I though what I was drenching them with (supplied from vet) would work. It didn't.

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7 years 1 week ago #531807 by Stikkibeek
Replied by Stikkibeek on topic scouring goats...
It would pay to get a worm egg count done so that you actually know you are needing to worm. That requires catching a fresh dung sample in a clean sample pot, and taking it to the vet to have it checked for worm eggs. In the meantime, I have had very good success with scourban for stopping scouring in goats. it's quite easy to give them as after the initial dose they seem to like it. Lush grass is not really what goats like. They are browsers, not grazers, so a variety is good for them which should include roughage. Get them some hay and feed that in addition to the grass. It should help.

Did you know, that what you thought I said, was not what I meant :S

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7 years 1 week ago #531812 by LongRidge
Replied by LongRidge on topic scouring goats...
While it is still warm, damp, and the grass is short length, the worms will be swarming to the top of the pasture leaves where they can be eaten, and thus infect the animal.
From my information, all the drench types that are designed to kill Barbers Pole (Haemonchus) will kill the worm as effectively as each other, except ....and this is a very big except .... when the worms on your farm have developed a resistance to that drench type. When your worms have developed that resistance then the drench is useless at the recommended dose. So you have to either increase the dose, or change the drench type. Levamisole and goats do not mix well, so a drench with levamisole in it should not be increased, unless you have no other drench so that the goat will die of the worm infection. If I only had a drench with levamisole in it I would give the goat three drenches each two days apart at the same rate as for a sheep.
The -ectins and -endazoles are much safer when overdosed, but the worms develop resistance to them quite easily. Many commercial goat farmers dose this at twice the rate that they would a sheep, every time they drench their goats.
Every goat has it's own susceptability to worms. I have some that catch worms very easily, and others that have seldom or never been affected by worms. But also, susceptability can change, so you do have to keep an eye on those that "never" get worms. But these do not need to be drenched when goats that are more prone to worm infection are sick. Only drench those that need to be drenched.
The drench does not stay in a goat for as long as for sheep, so they are only protected for a few days (about 4 is a good guess). This is another reason for not drenching the animals that don't need it.
Also, in NZ it is nearly impossible to eradicate the worms to a safe level. In some parts of the world they can cultivate the paddock, make hay, or just leave sheep and goats out of the paddock for a couple of years. This can't be done in NZ, but the worm quantity can be reduced by these methods or by grazing with cattle to vacuum the goat/sheep worms up.
Goats can get sick from worms before the worms start laying eggs, so a FEC is not an accurate way of determining if the drench is not needed.
So, what to do?
1. Feed hay.
2. Find out what are the active ingredients in the drench that you have. If you have a triple combination then change to a double without levamisole in it and drench 2 days apart 3 times at sheep dose, or 3 days apart at 1 1/2 sheep dose twice. Talk to the vet about doing FEC samples before drenching and after the last drench. If the egg count is still high then your worms are resistant to both drench families. In this case I would get an albendazol drench and use that at very high dose for a year or so, then change to an -ectin (not Cydectin) drench and use that at a high dose rate. NB only when the goats need to be drenched.
3. Open all the gates so that the goats can eat where-ever they wish. They do not like to eat contaminated pasture.
4. Fertilise so that the grass can grow faster.

NB Note that these suggestions are not based on scientifically proven facts, but mostly on scientific hypotheses and my experience. It might not work for you. Goats die from worms very easily .... even mine.

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7 years 1 week ago #531813 by bb
Replied by bb on topic scouring goats...
Thanks everyone. I have just come back from dropping off a sample for a FEC, wasn't happy after I wrote this post and figured I wasn't going to wait any longer. They already get hay and a variety of branches etc. The vet took one look at the sample and was pretty confident it was not diet related. They also suspected Barbers Pole possibly; I used Matrix and they reckon it is not as effective with BP, so may suggest Ultra... I will wait for results this afternoon and go from there.
I have read so much about worms over the last year and have done so many FECs, and I just feel more confused than ever. I split the paddock into three so I can rotate and they get fresh untouched paddock every 3 weeks. I weigh each goat every time I drench them. I try not to overdrench, and then they get worms again. I am tempted to just drench routinely but I know that's not good practice as it can build resistance. But getting FECs done every couple of months is becoming a bit costly... :dry:

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7 years 1 week ago #531818 by LongRidge
Replied by LongRidge on topic scouring goats...
The drench dose effectiveness (efficacy) has been worked out on everything except goats, and on these "everything elses" (dogs, cats, sheep, cattle, horses, humans) it is almost the same ....if there are no worms that are resistant :-). But goats have a different rate of metabolism, and a far more effective rumen bye-pass system than these other animals. Goats are also better at spitting out the drench than the other animals. Thus with goats, they can get less drench than you think they are getting, and for a shorter activity period.
Note that in sheep and cattle, recent research has suggested that oral drenching is hugely more effective than pour-ons and injections. Theoretically, injectibles should be better than oral drenching. But we, and the guys that did the research (Trevor Cook and Feilding Vets), did not find this.
Goats also have the habit of going back to the same place at the same time of day, so if they have previously dropped lots of worms there, then days or months later come back and graze in that area, they are at more risk than animals that do not do this.
Once ...and only once .... we did FECs on goats. We found the results so confusing that we haven't done it again. The results and conclusions are on here somewhere if you can find them :-(.

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7 years 1 week ago #531852 by LongRidge
Replied by LongRidge on topic scouring goats...
You mentioned above that you were feeding hay and branches to the goats. Have you by any chance been feeding them more fruit than they were getting? A sudden change in diet can result in loose poo until the bacteria in the gut get used to the new food.

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