Calf sellers obligations?

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10 years 9 months ago #463920 by Ruth
Replied by Ruth on topic Calf sellers obligations?
There's nothing wrong with giving an animal the benefit of your thoughts! I do it all the time; I just try to remember not to be doing it when there are other people around. :D

If the animal is alert and bright-eyed still, keep trying. If her ears and head go down though, you should reconsider. How experienced is the vet?

Why are you intending to drench twice in one day? Make sure the dose is correct for the animal the first time and let the stuff do its work.

How big/heavy is she?

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10 years 9 months ago #463922 by Flossie
Replied by Flossie on topic Calf sellers obligations?
Thanks Ruth, she has heard all about "shifting her butt" being beneficial for all of us!

Farmer gave me the dose and then the same again tonight. She is less than 100kg and he measured it for me. He deals in this size all along and has pointed out we should have gone to him to buy....didn't know he had any to sell but will know next time. Told him he is my new best friend! He said the vet was ....well I can't write that on here but you get the drift.....

This afternoons task will be to get the other three into stockyards and drenched.

Sheep are so much easier.....they follow me with a bucket of nuggets anywhere I want them to go and so do the piggies.

~Flossie~

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10 years 9 months ago #463925 by max2
Replied by max2 on topic Calf sellers obligations?
I thought the minimum time between drenching (ie for worms) was 3 weeks.... have I missed something or are we talking Ketol or some supplement instead?

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10 years 9 months ago #463926 by max2
Replied by max2 on topic Calf sellers obligations?
Just as an OTT moment but as we touched on drenching and my neighbour popped in saying his stock were coughing again despite oral drenching only a matter of weeks ago, why did my vets recommend pour on etc.... I made the telephone call to my vets to clarify.

Our vets have recommended pour on to me as not only will it attack what is active in the system as the oral does, but also the insistant lavae that is hibernating waiting for the stock to eat further moist pasture.

It should give us (and others) longer periods of time inbetween drenching and that currently (remember this is advise pertaining to my situation and area) by using an oral drench, it is currently considered normal to have to re-drench within 4 - 6 weeks..... thus is the seriousness of worm burden/problem.

A triple combination drench is recommended over the combo 2 dose that I was previously giving orally.... hope that explains the whys and wherefors..

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10 years 9 months ago #463929 by LongRidge
Replied by LongRidge on topic Calf sellers obligations?
Cydectin was made and trialed in Fort Dodge, Texas, and checked in the heat of australian outback. So for most of NZ, the climate is not right for Cydectin to be a useful long-term drench. Once the worms and external paracites have got resistance to Cydectin they also have resistance to all the -ectins. The Manager knows that it is good, because the adverts say so. But we had resistance to the -ectins, and it makes managing insect pests very difficult. I personally think that Cydectin is a bad drug, and should be banned.
I cannot believe that a 5 month old calf is only 100kg. That is the weight that Fresians should be at weaning at 12 weeks, and 80kg for pure Jerseys. If the calf is more than 100kg, then you have been under-drenching. This is the very, very best way to make resistant worms. Always drench more, and never, never, never give less than the dose. A little bit is much worse than none.
swaggie, the re-drench time is not set. But the quantity, within reason, is. If the label says "X days wiithholding for meat" then you cannot sell within that time for meat. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the drugs efficacy. But if you give a very large dose, then the withholding period becomes 90 days from that big dose. We had a problem with our donkeys that might have been worms, and the vet got us to drench with valbendasole every day for a week. It didn't cure the problem, because worms were not the problem.
With regard to euthanasia, our vets have given us some ridiculous guidance. There was the lamb with entropian eyelids we were told to kill, and there was Yellow 2 who played football with the donkeys and broke both right legs. It did not worry her in the least, and she is still alive 9 years later, now in retirement. We did kill the cow that had both hips broken, that the vet could not see but the butcher could. Then there are the cattle dogs that the owners wanted destroyed after the hay mower had cut a leg or two off. Dad, a vet, always fixed them, because he knew that a 3 legged cattle dog was probably more use than a 4 legged one. I re-iterate from being near to death a number of times (more than 5, less than 10), do not euthanase except if you cannot provide appropriate care.

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10 years 9 months ago #463932 by katieb
Replied by katieb on topic Calf sellers obligations?

Flossie;465872 wrote: Well I talked to the vet and he says its time BUT have got the farmer neighbour down with years of experience, he says the vet should have orally drenched her Monday and we have done that this morning and will do again tonight. Going to try another shot of penicillin also.

She will not move, have rubbed her hips and tried to shift her, have given her a good talking to about getting up (sorry know some will sneer) but she is not trying. She has drunk water again from a bucket and is nibbling on the nuggets and Baleage, head is up and eyes are alert.

So we are not giving up.

On the seller side, neighbour says don't bother, we won't get anywhere, just be aware for next time and chalk it down to experience.

Thanks for all the positive advice.


what are you drenching her with? I personally would be phoning the vet rather than administering what the neighbour suggests

what penicillin did the vet give her & was it a long or short acting dose? did the vet leave a follow up dose

Animals rule our place... cows, calves, sheep, goats, pigs, horses, donkeys, chickens, ducks... the list goes on
...."lifestyle block like" 25 or so acres around the house attached to a rather large farm with dairy drystock & a 600 cow dairy conversion :)....1500 acres to call home

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10 years 9 months ago #463936 by Barclay
Replied by Barclay on topic Calf sellers obligations?

LongRidge;465883 wrote: With regard to euthanasia, our vets have given us some ridiculous guidance. There was the lamb with entropian eyelids we were told to kill, and there was Yellow 2 who played football with the donkeys and broke both right legs. It did not worry her in the least, and she is still alive 9 years later, now in retirement. We did kill the cow that had both hips broken, that the vet could not see but the butcher could. Then there are the cattle dogs that the owners wanted destroyed after the hay mower had cut a leg or two off. Dad, a vet, always fixed them, because he knew that a 3 legged cattle dog was probably more use than a 4 legged one. I re-iterate from being near to death a number of times (more than 5, less than 10), do not euthanase except if you cannot provide appropriate care.

You need a visit from the SPCA. An animal with two broken legs isn't going to be "not worried in the least". I seriously question your ability to evaluate animal welfare situations from the above paragraph. This is really concerning reading.

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10 years 9 months ago #463941 by Ruth
Replied by Ruth on topic Calf sellers obligations?
Many of LR's posts are concerning reading. I don't know why anyone would continue to post that particular event's detail as if it were reasonable. This is not its first rendition.

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10 years 9 months ago #464015 by Flossie
Replied by Flossie on topic Calf sellers obligations?
Update - well "Posh Spice" (so scrawny��) is still here......she has been eating Baleage, eating nuts and drinking water. She has made a few attempts to get up this afternoon, we have rolled her over and back a couple of times and massaged her hips and back. Have let one of the others in with her for company and she is fussing over her and hoping she will give her encouragement to get moving a bit. We shall see.
Thanks for all the positive info.

~Flossie~

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10 years 9 months ago #464016 by daerfamily
Flossie, this wouldn't be 'frank' per chance, the guy you bought the calves off???

We got a couple off him last April, and within two weeks one went down hill, I wrote a thread on it, its called 'coughing cow, please help'. Anyway, turns out he was just worm ridden and needed an antibiotic as had a high temp! He is still with us and getting ready for the freezer mid spring! Let me know if it is him, I actually called the SPCA on him last year. Someone else on here bought some from him that weren't so flash, Seaside I think.

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10 years 9 months ago #464017 by Flossie
Replied by Flossie on topic Calf sellers obligations?

daerfamily;465976 wrote: Flossie, this wouldn't be 'frank' per chance, the guy you bought the calves off???

We got a couple off him last April, and within two weeks one went down hill, I wrote a thread on it, its called 'coughing cow, please help'. Anyway, turns out he was just worm ridden and needed an antibiotic as had a high temp! He is still with us and getting ready for the freezer mid spring! Let me know if it is him, I actually called the SPCA on him last year. Someone else on here bought some from him that weren't so flash, Seaside I think.


Good to hear he is still with you, gives us a lot of hope. Just had a glance through your previous thread.....all sounds remarkably similar :(

Sorry - not sure how I got that red face at the top!

~Flossie~

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10 years 9 months ago #464020 by Denneaux
Replied by Denneaux on topic Calf sellers obligations?
Just going to wade in with my two cents. I wouldn't euthanise that calf if I were you (I'll reserve further judgement on your vet). If a calf is eating and drinking then they are still worth a shot ( pun not intended). Did your vet prescribe any painkillers? We use flunixin for pain relief and inflammation ( I'm sure your calf will have a bit of both in its gut). Taking care of the pain often convinces them to get up and going.

Sent from my SGH-I927 using Tapatalk 2

Unless stated, the above post is not meant as criticism.

Go back and read it again in your HAPPY voice!

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10 years 9 months ago #464022 by Ronney
Replied by Ronney on topic Calf sellers obligations?
Flossie, going back to my first post, I'm glad that you haven't given up on her but you must get her up - and sorry, I don't much care what others might say. It is important that she is raised as soon as possible and the fact that she is trying on her own is a good sign. But you need to help her either by physically man handling her up or rigging up something to enable you to do so. Also, she needs turning every few hours because although she may not be a full grown cow, her weight to body ratio is relevant.

Barclay, I would be the first to say that LR talks some utter bloody nonsense at times but sometimes there are pearls of wisdom amongst it. He is quite right - lambs particularly, and sheep often, can suffer a broken leg or even legs and all you will see is a lame sheep and think it's got scald or something equally as minor. I once leased a Belgian Blue bull that had broken it's back leg as a calf and the owners had dealt with it. Nobody but nobody keeps a bull with a broken back leg - do they? I milk one of his progeny. One of the best heading dogs I ever saw working had both back legs mangled in the chain sprocket of a bike. The vets saved one leg and amputated the other and she went on to work for another 5 years before she was retired and died two years later. I could go on.....

Good luck Flossie, I think you will find she will pull through. And I see no reason as to why you shouldn't use the experience of your newly found farmer friend. Vets have knowledge, they don't necessarily have experience.

Cheers,
Ronnie

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10 years 9 months ago #464028 by Poultry Valley and Lifestyle
Hi, I agree you will have no leg to stand on, same at any livestock auction, at the fall of the hammer you own it !

So my 2 cents worth would be, don't bother with the 'Levamisol' drench someone mentioned earlier, a drench rep gave us that crap too, and we recently had to get the Vet out ( twice ) to poorly calves and he said " Levamisol " was so old school that he did not think it was made any more and that it had /has the highest resistance than any drench made and does NOT work ! [:0] We have / had been drenching with an Ivamectin Pour-0n BUT the Vet gave them a Cydection Injectable drench which much made a big difference, so this is what I would go with, and a B12 injection with Selenium maybe beneficial as well, and also long acting antibiotic would not go amiss either.... All the best [;)]

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10 years 9 months ago #464035 by Barclay
Replied by Barclay on topic Calf sellers obligations?

Ronney;465982 wrote:

Barclay, I would be the first to say that LR talks some utter bloody nonsense at times but sometimes there are pearls of wisdom amongst it. He is quite right - lambs particularly, and sheep often, can suffer a broken leg or even legs and all you will see is a lame sheep and think it's got scald or something equally as minor. I once leased a Belgian Blue bull that had broken it's back leg as a calf and the owners had dealt with it. Nobody but nobody keeps a bull with a broken back leg - do they? I milk one of his progeny. One of the best heading dogs I ever saw working had both back legs mangled in the chain sprocket of a bike. The vets saved one leg and amputated the other and she went on to work for another 5 years before she was retired and died two years later. I could go on.....


Hey, I'm not saying every sick animal should get shot- I'm all for fixing animals up. The difference here is the examples you give are of animals that have been treated, either by an experienced farmer or by a vet. LR's examples often lack even basic care. And please don't mistake an animal that is still mobile for an animal that is not in pain. Most animals only show pain when it is so bad that it can't be hidden.

Your bull example is a classic example of a deceptive single experience. Yes, a properly treated broken leg in a young animal has a very good chance of complete healing with no complications. BUT- for every animal that is appropriately treated and does well there will be others with untreatable (ie upper leg) fractures, or inappropriate treatment, or out-right neglect that result in life-long pain or welfare compromise. Citing examples of where a single animal has done ok can often lead people astray.

LR's example of the entropion lamb is one such case- people reading about that would now be more likely to think it's ok to keep such an animal, which it probably isn't. Entropion is very painful (imagine having grit in your eye all day, every day) and can be passed on to the offspring. I'd consider this good grounds for euthanasia. LR disagrees, which makes me question their understanding of animal welfare. An entropion lamb is a welfare compromise- keeping it alive because you think it's fine is NOT ok.

I know I've gone a bit off-topic here but lifestyle blocks are often cited for welfare issues and usually it's through ignorance or misunderstanding rather than neglect or willful mistreatment. All I want to do here is encourage good welfare understanding and try to tone down some of the more scary 'advice' that is thrown around by amateurs.

EDIT: Just a note on the vet knowledge vs experience argument. A vet will see as many sick animals in a year as a farmer will in a lifetime plus they have the training and up to date knowledge to apply the best treatment. I'm not saying they'll always be right but I'd usually trust their advice way more than someone else who's only claim to knowledge is that they are living next door.

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