What is the cover period of these drenches?

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11 years 7 months ago #442369 by 4trees
Hi, for what it is worth, we have had Haemonchus and Ostertagia over the years IN SHEEP, so whether this advice will help I am not sure. We stick to one drench which covers these two plus other worms, and drench generally from late November approximately monthly through until we start to get the cooler weather in the late Autumn. I would keep an eye on the animal and if you see any signs lethargy is one of the main signs then act promptly. Good luck.

Cheers
http:treeandshrub.co.nz

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11 years 7 months ago #442382 by Ashlee
Have you had a blood test done?

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11 years 7 months ago #442384 by topcat83

Ashlee;442027 wrote: Have you had a blood test done?

Yes, Ashlee - more than once. I'm sure you've had the latest alpaca magazine - and it's quite ironic that the two articles in it (on Barbers Pole and 'The Three Amigos') arrived a month too late.

Our girl has survived due to a tremendous amount of effort from another more experienced alpaca breeder, who recognised that we had more than 'just a worm problem'. On top of the drenching to remove the worm burden, she prescribed an intensive programme of drenching daily with probiotic yoghurt, cows colostrum and a multitude of vitamins and minerals (which included vitamins B, C, D , phosphorus & iron). I cannot thank her enough. And our local farmer, who provided the colostrum and helped us to drench her every day. We're down to a yoghurt drench every other day now, but she's not out of the woods yet.

4trees - it is no good us starting in November. This winter was mild and wet enough that she fell ill in July. And because she's been so ill, if we see signs of lethargy it's too late!

And I totally understand Longridge, that you can only guarantee cover for 4 days. But different drenches do have different (average) lengths of cover.

I also apologise if I sound exasperated by this, but in this case we have a very specific reason for wanting just one alpaca covered, and so far although everyone has come up with all the 'normal' best answers for Haemunchus, it has not answered the one thing I need.

Which is (on average) what length of reasonable cover can I expect from different drenches.
I cannot drench her every 4 days, not least because it would be highly dangerous for her!!

Oh dear - this is addictive. Now up to 4 alpaca boys, 6 girls (3 pregnant ones), a beautiful cria, a quarter of a stud (I hope we get the dangly bits) and six more girls on the way. The sheep who thinks he's an alpaca goes to meet some new friends tomorrow, we're down to 1 rescue cat, but are still...

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11 years 7 months ago #442398 by cowvet
A few points...

camelids are quite different to your average ruminant so there is no way on this earth that I am going to use ruminant based data on chemical drench suggestions.
I know the answer to your question with regard to drench persistency but this mean NOTHING in another species or if you have a high challenge. The infomation is not relevant or safe to assume from if your animals are grazing heavily contaminated areas and picking up new parasites as soon as/soon after they have been drenched.

In such situations you are far better to approach the problem by pasture/grazing management and use of alternative species in a rotational grazing plan. Trying to fix a parasite problem just with drenching is not a sustainable approach IMHO


I love animals...they're delicious

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11 years 7 months ago #442406 by topcat83
I'm sorry - I give up.

I'm afraid I'm finding this forum a bit like hitting my head against a brick wall.

I know that pasture management is the way forward for the majority of my animals, and I know that you cannot rigidly apply what is right for one species to another.

But unfortunately for alpacas, we do not have a large database of data on which to base our decisions. Alpacas (IMHO) have similarities to sheep, goats and horses. So understanding as much as possible about the effects of drugs on these animals helps us to make decisions for our alpacas.

And as I have said, for drenching, I am talking about one animal here, not our whole herd. This one animal needs special treatment. I will not be saturation-drenching the whole herd.

So thank you Lifestyle Block for being here for the majority of Lifestyle Block species - but I do think that some of your contributors should read the question that was originally asked, and not go off on well meaning tangents of advice that in this case are not relevant.

I still haven't had any useful information about my initial question, so I will now go and do some more trawling on the internet.

Oh dear - this is addictive. Now up to 4 alpaca boys, 6 girls (3 pregnant ones), a beautiful cria, a quarter of a stud (I hope we get the dangly bits) and six more girls on the way. The sheep who thinks he's an alpaca goes to meet some new friends tomorrow, we're down to 1 rescue cat, but are still...

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11 years 7 months ago #442417 by LongRidge
I'm sorry that I haven't been able to give you the answer that you wanted, and that answer would be very easy to give but would be a complete lie. I strongly suggest that if you do find the answer that you want, then you too should consider that answer extremely unreliable. The companies that make and sell these products want you to buy their product, so are very happy to quote unreliable "scientific experiments".
If she were my animal, I would be doing Faecal Egg Count Reduction Tests, to look for a drench that works, for her, by the way I drench, and on our pasture. It is a moderately reasonable assumption that if the drench does something or nothing to the other gastro-intestinal nematodes then it will do the same to H contortus. So rather than isolate the eggs and check if Hc is still alive, all that is needed is an egg count of all the nematode eggs.

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11 years 7 months ago #442420 by spoook
Topcat, do not give up, there are brick walls in all aspects of animal care, you just "have to get over it." There are always ways around too. [;)]

We have found Genesis Ultra to be about 30 days effective for barber's pole worm in goats. Of course the efficacy is depleting as the days go by.
The label says 42 days in sheep.
This is true for us but may not be true for your animals.

There is also the chance of creating drench resistant worms if you come to rely on the effective period and re-drench to a schedule. I say this from personal experience. :( Last summer was prime for parasites. [:(!] The BP worm was rife here and we had casualties. :(

The effectiveness also needs to take in account whether the drench is an ovicide, this will remove the upcoming eggs and "stop" the next generation of breeders. Until they eat contaminated pasture again, they should be worm free.

You also need to know how contaminated your land is as to how many worms you are fighting. If you are not highly contaminated you do not need to drench frequently, FECs will tell you how infested your livestock are.
Watch carefully for signs, pale mucous membranes and inside eyelids. Get counts done to prove it is from worms before you drench. No point pumping chemicals into the poor animal if they are not the cure. Also hard on one's pocket.

If you only have a small/ low infestation on the pasture your livestock will take far longer to get to the stage of needing a drench.

With your poorly alpaca, have you tried the "treat" her with Vigest? Treat as in increase her vitamin and mineral intake and treat as in she will come running for it once she has the taste. Vigest can be used as a food in time of high need.

If you feel BP worm IS her problem, can you prevent her from grazing? Hard feed her. Forage trees, hay, nuts, chaff etc.
If this were done for a month say, surely this would highlite if there were other issues than worms.

On a personal experience level............
we are infested with BP worm, well we were last season. I doubt it has been cold enough here to eradicte it down to an acceptable level, by me anyway. We can no longer use Genesis Ultra, we have shot ourselves in the foot with that option. This sadly also rules out other drenches as they contain the same family of drench.
We turned to Startect as an exit drench. This means using it as the season closes so the animals are virtually worm free for the cold season.
Now the weather is warming, so I am told [:0], the parasites will be crawling up the grass waiting to be digested to start the new season.
We have, so far, not drenched any of our goats and all seem to be in "good colour". That does not mean they do not have worms, just that they are not infested..... yet.
I have to mention we are trying a product that says it increases the immunity of the animal. So far, so good.
My theory is that if you can boost/ feed up/ protect the young for about the first say, 8 months, they have had the best start to be able to handle what ever is thrown at them the rest of their lives.
Believe me a little angora goat kid needs all the help I can give it, so tiny so defenceless and cute, did I say cute??

If you do gather the information you are seeking regards each drench and place it on the web, make sure you add a disclaimer. There are far too many variables to be able to calculate a true effective period.

I hope this helps and you do not give up, we are a caring family that is a source of amazing knowledge, we just don't seem to have the indepth answers you are looking for.

There are no bad questions only those that are not asked.
"You are responsible, forever, for what you have tamed"

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11 years 7 months ago #442434 by topcat83
Spook, many thanks for your reply. There were some very usefull things in it for me. I will certainly investigate using Startect in the autumn if we continue to have problems with the rest of the herd.

Yes, we certainly have used a 'tonic' - not Vigest, but Tectonic - on a regular basis. Plus an iron supplement, and the vitamin drench every day. This has taken her from a point where she was at death's door to the point where she has a fighting chance. And she is a fighter! And I intend to keep it that way!

Oh dear - this is addictive. Now up to 4 alpaca boys, 6 girls (3 pregnant ones), a beautiful cria, a quarter of a stud (I hope we get the dangly bits) and six more girls on the way. The sheep who thinks he's an alpaca goes to meet some new friends tomorrow, we're down to 1 rescue cat, but are still...

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11 years 7 months ago #442436 by cowvet
I think my point is that there is no answer to your question for camelids. Trying to say that they have similarities to sheep/goats and horses illustrates that....horses are not ruminants and their metabolism is totally different to sheep/goats. The gut of the alpaca is very different to the sheep/goat. Assumption will stuff you up. you are better to monitor and drench when required. If this animal is so susceptible and your pastures are heavily contaminated then a zero grazing feeding regime is the safest option.

In the early days of alpacas many assumptions were made with regard to using drugs on them like we do sheep and goats. It is now common knowledge that you do NOT use Lutalyse (a common repro drug used in breeding) on alpacas yet it is relatively safe on sheep/goats.
I have done a fair amount of work with alpacas and this is not the place to get the information you are after. My experience is that they are a lot more sensitive to toxins, and their liver and/or renal clearance of these drugs has not been tested. Given that the use of these drugs is ''off label'' no-one other than the dispensing vet should be giving you advice on what to use, how often or at what dose. We have these laws to make sure the drugs are used appropriately, adverse effects are monitored and reported, and the animals welfare is considered.
Whilst your own personal vet may not know the answer there are a good number he/she can contact and advise you accordingly. Has Startect been used on camelids? A camelid is not a goat.... and your animal is already compromised.


I love animals...they're delicious

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