Agenda21

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9 years 10 months ago #440776 by thevarneys
Replied by thevarneys on topic Agenda21
Simpkin - I understand that there is plenty of food in the world, it is how it is allocated that is the problem. Look at the waste in western countries,....
I think some countries tie their funds up in weapons and drugs and other things, rather than food/aid/welfare etc,

Some people are so poor, all they have is money.

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9 years 10 months ago #440781 by Simkin
Replied by Simkin on topic Agenda21
There used to be plenty of food in the world, yes, and the supermarket shelves are still full - but - there is a shortage of certain foods and the prices are going up. More and more people can't buy good food for themselves and their families.

Have you not noticed the sugar price hike? Too much sugar is converted into fuel but as peak oil has been and gone there is a shortage, too. So in the end it will be food that takes priority but this also means that for a government it is desirable that people live close together so that transport does not require large quantities of fuel and that heating is more efficient.

In the US the 7th consecutive corn harvest has been dismal. 40% is allocated to fuel, 40% to animal feed and 20% for human consumption. With only about 40% of normal expected to be in the silos, something has to miss out.

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9 years 10 months ago #440783 by Blueberry
Replied by Blueberry on topic Agenda21

kindajojo;440176 wrote: - not seeing the problem with the proposal at the moment ....obviously it makes sense to have a handle on world resources and population rather than the nation by nation adhoc system we have at the moment......at some point (in the future) we will be a global society with one language etc etc.....its how we get there thats going to be an interesting journey .....unfortunately there are always those negative people that knock everything without providing constructive comments


there's also that little thing of similar attempts having gone wrong in previous history. kindajojo, if you don't believe what the 'conspiray theorists' point out - then go back in history; Attila the Hunn, Tito in Jugoslawie, Hitler in Germany, the Russion Revolution, or, more contemporary, EU and China; these are examples of attempts at centralisation of governements (amalgamation of power in the hands of a few (unelected) paperpushers)- see anyplace you'd want to live?

[;)] Blueberry
treading lightly on mother earth

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9 years 10 months ago #440785 by Mich
Replied by Mich on topic Agenda21
Interesting item just up on Stuff...
www.stuff.co.nz/business/7781229/Greens-...-sign-of-panic-Joyce

For an explanation...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing
Cheers, Mich.

Good exercise for the heart is to bend down and help someone up. Anon.

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9 years 10 months ago #440786 by wandering free
Replied by wandering free on topic Agenda21
It looks to me like Agenda21 is up and running in the US. Agriculture is already controlled by corporations like Monsanto who don't hesitate to bankrupt any small scale farmers who have contamination from their GM crops.

This is part of an article from "Congress sides with Monsanto over GMO battle."

(The corporation has threatened lesser farms with hundreds of lawsuits for using genetically modified crops patented by Monsanto that have been carried onto their farms by wind and other elements of nature. Recently, the corporation threatened to sue the entire state of Vermont because lawmakers there were considering a bill that would force manufacturers to label products that are created either partially or in full from a GMO.)

You wouldn't think these corporations are run by people, it just shows what greed does to some people, turns them into rabid dogs.

Just me and the cat now, on 2 acres of fruit and veg + hazel nuts, macadamia, chestnuts and walnuts,
www.youtube.com/user/bandjsellars?feature=mhee

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9 years 10 months ago #440809 by Hawkspur
Replied by Hawkspur on topic Agenda21

RhodeRed;440168 wrote: G'day Mich :)

Good point Didi.

Heres the website of the anti-agenda21 group the woman being interviewed in the above vid represents.

www.democratsagainstunagenda21.com/

It has a decent run down of what Agenda21 is and how it operates quite insidiously. Its low-bandwidth internet friendly. :)
...

I had a look at this website. It put me off in the first paragraph, by being ill-informed and scaremongering about a "new" term: "high density urban mixed use development"
This term has been around for decades, despite the claim in that paragraph, and in fact mixed-use is exactly what old cities were, before "zoning" came to be used from 1886.
A lot of lifestyle blocks are mixed-use. Farm, home and office. Safer town centres are mixed-use, where people live above shops and offices, there is higher foot traffic, and reduced crime. People get to know their neighbours and interact with them. Shocking eh?
:rolleyes::rolleyes:

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9 years 10 months ago #440848 by kindajojo
Replied by kindajojo on topic Agenda21

RhodeRed;440248 wrote: Kindajojo; Go read about Agenda21 yourself, do your own homework, thats the only way you learn, not being mean but what do you expect to learn if I spoon feed you my opinion? :)
The website above has some good info'.

I have read the UN agenda 21.... I was just wondering how you got from that, which sounds reasonable..... to the linear housing, land seizure...etc etc etc
I have not found any balanced informed websites, with some scientific basis for their claims.

So given the situation of continued world population growth (particularly in third world developing nations v Limitation factors of food production and other resources.

What are the solutions!!!!

I live on a LSB, I have limited area/ability to grow grass.
I have a stocking rate X animals per acre
I know that my animals can breed......do I have a right to stop them or do I let them multiply to the point where a large portion will starve to death or their lifestyle will be negatively affected.
I cannot afford to buy in feed to meet the growing demand.....so
1. I limit the members of animals who can breed
2. I dont keep animals that are non productive
3. I maximise the use of resources to do the best I can for all

If you think of the earth as a giant LSB puts it in perspective........

Ducks for shelter

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9 years 10 months ago #440902 by spark
Replied by spark on topic Agenda21
Hi,

Well, Agenda 21 seems like your typical politically correct UN publication, that is very broad and "subject to interpretation":
eg in:
Promoting Sustainable Human Settlement Development
www.un.org/esa/dsd/agenda21/res_agenda21_07.shtml

They say "(f) All countries, especially developing ones, should, as appropriate, formulate and implement programmes to reduce the impact of the phenomenon of rural to urban drift by improving rural living conditions;"
This hardly sounds like wanting to cram everyone into high-density housing, but that document is so open-ended I am sure that a politician (with a land developer for a friend? - this is called corruption) could use it to justify "urban renewal" and restriction of "under-productive farmland".

Anyway, my understanding is that once a country develops, the birth rate falls significantly (world population is predicted to level out at 10 to 11 Billion or so - UN), in the case of some countries, to less than the birth rate required to keep up with the natural death rate (an aging population).
Education, health, human rights, and not having to rely on your children for an income in retirement or if you get sick or disabled probably have a lot to do with this.

RhodeRed > The guts of it is forcing people off the land and into tightly packed vertically sprawling mega-cities where they can be controled more easily.

That sounds like a recipe for crime, violence and strife. Wouldn't it be better to build a society where most people are happy and comfortable, feel like they have a stake in their society and that it is in their best interests for the status quo to continue? Where a prime minister or president can walk down the main street of the capital city without a security entourage because there are no credible threats?

Simkin> I have to admit that I crinch each time I read a thread 'forever home for 20something year old horse (or wether or whatever) wanted'. Instead of feeding a horse, this land could grow a cattlebeast ready for the works every 2 years (considering that during year 1 it doesn't eat much).

Because food is relatively cheap in the developed world, market forces dictate that land is used for lifestyle blocks instead of for productive farms. If the cost of food were to rise (due to increased demand from more people in the world?), then more people will choose to graze cattle instead of pet horses.
For example, the staple of my dog's diet is lamb brisket (people could eat this if I didn't feed it to my dog but it is cheap because people don't like to eat it), it costs me about $50 for 18kg, however, if the price were to go up to say $500 for 18kg (because lots of people wanted to eat it), then I probably wouldn't be feeding lamb brisket to my dog anymore.

Scuba_Steve> That bills the one which gives our armed police (illegal) right to forcefully enter a property fully geared complete with live ammo to stop a little old granny "poisoning our streets" with her jam

Police fire order F61:
www.police.govt.nz/news/release/3376.html
Basically, it's illegal for the police to charge in fully geared to stop a little old granny who has only been selling jam that doesn't comply with NZFSA rules. So, prove that the cops are breaking the law (private CCTV?) and cause a political stink (the press is still generally free to publish such things in this part of the world).
IMHO, if the law wants to deal with someone selling "non-approved" food (a non-violent "malum prohibitum" offence, you know, like driving an unregistered car with an expired WOF), I think that it should generally be carried out by knocking on the door and presenting a search & seizure warrant and then letting the suspect choose the level of violence that will be used (ie the police officer's pistol, if worn, will remain in it's holster unless the suspect makes a credible threat to use deadly force). Guns drawn, kick the door in type operations should be reserved for dealing with things like hostage situations or armed and dangerous offenders.

Simkin> In the US the 7th consecutive corn harvest has been dismal. 40% is allocated to fuel, 40% to animal feed and 20% for human consumption. With only about 40% of normal expected to be in the silos, something has to miss out.

Food to fuel conversion is bad idea. I beleive that most food to fuel conversion only happens because of government subsidies and "renewable fuel" mandates (think agribusiness lobbying of governments).
I have a different proposal. They say that we are going to end up with 10 to 11 billion people. We don't have the technology to produce enough energy soley by sustainable means, for all these people to enjoy a 1st world standard of living www.withouthotair.com/ . So dare I say it, we should replace the coal combustion for electricity generation with nuclear power, which will free up coal for coal to liquid fuel conversion (a temporary measure). Then, ecconomies of scale and new nuclear technology will drive down the cost of electricity (the vast majority of the cost of nuclear is capital to build the power station, not fuel costs) the same way that they have driven down the cost of computers, flat screen TVs, etc. Cheap electricity and improved battery technology plus increasing demand will result in electric transport that is cheaper and more convenient than liquid fueled vehicles, and CO2 emissions will fall (we will have less air pollution in our cities too!).
Once the world is educated, healthy, wealthy, and developed, I expect that birth rates will fall below replacement level, as has happened in some countries, and eventually, the world population will decline to a level (1 to 2 billion they say) where sustainable energy is sufficient provide everyone with a 1st world standard of living.

I also think that war for oil (Iraq?) is a bad idea. For example, the huge sum of money that the USA has spent on fighting the Iraq war, has basically been sent up in smoke and could have instead been used to build infrastructure within the US (like nuclear electricity and coal to liquid fuels conversion) that would pretty much well have eliminated US dependance on foreign oil imports.

kindajojo> So given the situation of continued world population growth (particularly in third world developing nations v Limitation factors of food production and other resources.

What are the solutions!!!!


Well, considering that once a country develops, people stop breeding like rabbits, one solution is to use technology to (temporarily) raise the carrying capacity of the environment so that we can complete development and then let the population level gradualy decline to long term sustainable levels. For instance, fresh water is in short supply in many places, but there is no shortage of liquid water on earth - it just needs to be treated (desalinated) to make it fit for use as fresh water. Technology reduces the cost of desalination plant and the energy to make it work. Also, we can do stuff like take energy, nitrogen from the air, hydrogen from water or natural gas (extraction from methane is cheapest) and make nitrogen fertilisers to replace the nitrogen in the plant and animal proteins that are removed from the farmland (Recycling sewage into fertiliser is probably far more sustainable and a good way of reducing eutrophication from waste water discharge to the environment, but we haven't got there yet).

Cheers

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9 years 10 months ago #440966 by kindajojo
Replied by kindajojo on topic Agenda21
Thank you Spark for balanced discussion points... :D

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9 years 10 months ago #440998 by wandering free
Replied by wandering free on topic Agenda21

spark;440420 wrote: Hi,

Well, Agenda 21 seems like your typical politically correct UN publication, that is very broad and "subject to interpretation":
eg in:
Promoting Sustainable Human Settlement Development
www.un.org/esa/dsd/agenda21/res_agenda21_07.shtml

ecconomies of scale and new nuclear technology will drive down the cost of electricity (the vast majority of the cost of nuclear is capital to build the power station, not fuel costs)

Cheers

I would agree if it was not for human nature, as an apprentice to the firm that supplied the diesel engines to Dounreay I always took an interest in how it performed and I thought atomic energy was going to solve all our energy needs, then reports started to come out about how they handled the waste, which they were convinced would not be a problem within 10 years of when I was there in 1956.
It was a breeder reactor so it is an extreme case, never the less this is what they say know:-

On 1 April 2005 the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority (NDA) became the owner of the site, with the UKAEA remaining as operator. Decommissioning of Dounreay is planned to bring the site to an interim care and surveillance state by 2036, and as a brownfield site by 2336, at a total cost of £ 2.9 billion.

Only 300 years wow by then the coast will have eroded and it will all be in the sea, that rant aside, you have to factor in decommissioning at a time when no energy is being produced, that cost goes onto the future generations.

Interesting how (the world population is predicted to level out at 10 to 11 Billion or so - UN, )
Other scientific estimates are it will never rise above 7.5 billion, the UN don't seem to factor in the EROEI of energy extraction, and the pollution that the new technologies are now creating in ever increasing amounts.

Let's scrap the car and get back to a simpler life style. :)

Just me and the cat now, on 2 acres of fruit and veg + hazel nuts, macadamia, chestnuts and walnuts,
www.youtube.com/user/bandjsellars?feature=mhee

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9 years 10 months ago #441002 by DiDi
Replied by DiDi on topic Agenda21
Spark - as someone who is physically and mentally exhausted, I should not be replying but I agree with much of what you have been saying. My problem is that I have been aware of Agenda 21 for a number of years and I see the "agenda" being put into place even for example with our Super City of Auckland.

It is all about getting people to live in the confines of central Auckland and that can also be evidenced by a majority of Rate payer money being spent in the Central area as opposed to the catchment areas of Rodney through to Pukekohe. Something like 74% of the Super City is rural and yet all the planning is about Central Auckland and the waterfront. The 74% of peasants are paying while not having buses every 10 minutes (empty ones at that!) and meanwhile, gorse, privet, ragwort is again being allowed to overtake our rural areas because they either don't understand the implications or don't care. Kiwi Rail used to have to spray their gorse next to the lines - but no more. There is a yellow ribbon extending throughout Auckland. Maybe the plan is to exhaust the peasants in rural areas who cannot fight the invasion of noxious plants that used to be controlled by the eight different Councils. It is working!

Again, I have major issues with the environmental "thrust" of the UN under Agenda 21 as we have had indoctrination for the past 20 years in this country through our schools in the Treaty of Waitangi and now Climate Change - I am a total non believer in either. As a person who grew up in this country and knows from family history (in Maori areas), the make believe stories of today that is seeing huge wealth (paid by this generation of tax payers) going to the Maori Elite is soul destroying. Knowing that as a kid, when we got out of school at Christmas, we burnt to a crisp over the School Holiday and cooled off in the water. The Summer weather for the past few years is freezing cold compared to then (I'm old!) so how is it getting warmer?

It is part of Agenda 21 to convince the world that it will be destroyed if we don't pay our way (look at the taxes we are paying and the settlements already paid out on carbon tax in this country way above the current value) and it is the middle class and the poor who are paying. For anyone new on this site - I was a National Party member for 20+ years and resigned at the end of 2009. I am apolitical in terms of parties so have the freedom to look at this with an open mind. What I see scares the hell out of me and I am well educated. Thankfully not at school over the past 20 years!

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9 years 10 months ago #441003 by Simkin
Replied by Simkin on topic Agenda21

DiDi;440530 wrote:
and now Climate Change - I am a total non believer in either.

... as a kid, when we got out of school at Christmas, we burnt to a crisp over the School Holiday and cooled off in the water. The Summer weather for the past few years is freezing cold compared to then (I'm old!) so how is it getting warmer?

DiDi - you answer your own question. It's not called 'Global warming' anymore - it's called 'Climate Change'.

This new term takes into account that it's not getting cooler or warmer but that the climate is changing - we all can observe this.

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9 years 10 months ago #441017 by RhodeRed
Replied by RhodeRed on topic Agenda21

Simkin;440532 wrote: DiDi - you answer your own question. It's not called 'Global warming' anymore - it's called 'Climate Change'.

This new term takes into account that it's not getting cooler or warmer but that the climate is changing - we all can observe this.


Climate is ALWAYS changing.

Please explain the paleolithic warming/cooling periods in terms of modern mans direct interference/causality.

Please explain the medieval warming period when they were growing grapes in northern England in terms of how it was generated by modern man.

PLEASE explain how channeling billions of dollars to the UN via Al' Gore and associates is in ANYWAY going to alleviate anything if there WAS a problem.

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9 years 10 months ago #441018 by spark
Replied by spark on topic Agenda21
Hi,

On the subject of Dounreay, that was in 1956.
The Russians had staged their first successful nuclear weapons test in 1949, the British in 1952, and by 1956 the cold war and the arms race was in full swing. Considering that Dounreay was an R&D facility, given the political climate of the times, I strongly suspect that weapons work was performed there and that winning the cold war was of more concern to the powers that were than the state of the environment.

I understand that in 1956, it was quite acceptable to test nuclear bombs above ground, even though a groundburst bomb transmutes the soil at ground zero into dangerous radioactive isotopes which are thrown up into the air to become fallout. (I wonder how much of the fallout from British tests in Australia made it to New Zealand?)
Also on the subject of ionising radiation, Hannahs on Queen Street in Auckland (and likely other shoe shops back then too www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article....66&objectid=10828479 & www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article....66&objectid=10828479 ) used to have a fluoroscope x-ray machine for fitting children's shoes.

Back then it was also acceptable to paint houses and childrens toys with lead paint, insulate with asbestos, and smoke around other people in confined spaces like offices, aircraft, and cinemas. Petrol was leaded, the vast majority of cars didn't have seatbelts and (at least in New Zealand) drunk driving was practicaly a national sport. DDT was used with gay abandon (Silent Spring was not published until 1962) and heavy metals like arsenic were used for pesticides (hence the trouble today with contaminated sheep dip sites and old market gardens).

Considering the way things were done back then, I am not at all surprised that Dounreay is an absolute mess that will cost a fortune to clean up sufficiently to meet modern standards. If we build new civilian nuclear power facilities (not bomb factories) we don't have to make the same mistakes that have been made in years gone past.

Future generations will get saddled with some of the costs of cleaning up (as has my generation for the mistakes of previous generations), but they also get the benefits of the education, healthcare and infrastructure that are passed on to them.

So, nuclear energy is not perfect and it is not perfectly safe, but I understand that it is better than many of the alternatives like coal (which is used to produce about 40% of the world's electricity www.iea.org/stats/pdf_graphs/29ELEC.pdf ) especially once you start to consider the number of people killed per unit of energy produced (see figure 24.11 www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c24/page_168 ). Even renewables kill people, hydro dams fail ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam ) people fall off of roofs when working with photovoltaic panels and solar water heaters, or get crushed by trees that are felled for firewood, etc.

As for scraping the car, if I had to scrap my car, I wouldn't be able to get to work in town, which means that I wouldn't be able to afford to pay the mortgage on the property that I want to buy, because (like most other people on here?) I wouldn't be able to make enough money from the land to pay the bills, so I have to work in town and commute.

DiDi, I wonder if the supercity council neglecting the noxious weed invasion is simply a case of "ivory tower syndrome", where those up on high in their tower, are so far disconnected from what happens "down on the farm" that they do not know, worry or care about a problem with invasive weeds.

I am only in my early thirties (so I expect that I have many decades ahead of me) and I am quite concerned about the us-and-them racial divisiveness that I see in this country (of which I see the treaty greivance industry is a part of). I do not want to see Aoteroa end up like Fiji where the racial us-and-them has got the to point of coup d'état and all that goes with it...
From what some older people have told me about race relations in years before my time, I wonder if having full employment would make most of the greivance industry go away because we wouldn't have as many people on the margins of society?
I am a keen hunter, and I have already run into systemic racisim, where for example, a friend of mine who is Maori, wishes to take me onto the tribes land, as a guest, to hunt with him, but is not allowed to because I am a white boy (that's the tribe's unofficial policy for us peasants). This is quite a contrast to the way that other land owners have acted when their family members have wanted to invite me to hunt on their land as their guest.

I believe that the Kyoto process (carbon tax) is fundamentally flawed and functions more as a way to transfer wealth, than as a way to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

As far as political parties and voting is concerned, I am seriously disappointed with my options at elections. It seems like I have the option of choosing between being straped or caned.

Cheers

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9 years 10 months ago #441044 by morioka
Replied by morioka on topic Agenda21

RhodeRed;440547 wrote: Climate is ALWAYS changing.

Please explain the paleolithic warming/cooling periods in terms of modern mans direct interference/causality.

Please explain the medieval warming period when they were growing grapes in northern England in terms of how it was generated by modern man.

PLEASE explain how channeling billions of dollars to the UN via Al' Gore and associates is in ANYWAY going to alleviate anything if there WAS a problem.

What you are not understanding is that while climate has always changed the current exponential rate of change has never been so fast in the history of this planet. What has usually taken thousands of years to change is now compressed into hundreds and quite simply weather and ecosystems are not able to adapt, hence all the weird weather and acceleration of ecosystem decline and species extinction.

My partner is a scientist working in the area of climate change research and I can assure you that there are no secret govt pacts, hidden agenda 21's or anything similar, only the sheer damn frustration that self serving lobby groups are hell bent, spending millions in the media spouting out long debunked psuedo science trying to protect their own bank accounts for as long as they possibly can. They know that the life of their polluting industries are coming to an end and are doing anything they can to prolong the inevitable.

Time to take the tinfoil hat off your ostrich head. Hidden agendas aren't the sole preserve of governments and media

'Nuff said

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