At last the crazy give way laws in this country are changing!

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10 years 7 months ago #406873 by DiDi
You know what -we are all relating to this rule where we live. As others have pointed out - Pukekohe is just awesome as they have put in more roundabouts and no traffic lights.

It is hardly a small town now (traffic in 22 years had gone ballistic!) BUT everyone understands the roundabout rules - ok maybe there are some people in their 80's/90's that take a wee bit longer to read the traffic flow BUT on the whole we have the most amazing generosity as well. Won't name it but one small onto main road situation that banks up into town - what happens - people "zip" and allow those drivers to enter into the main entry into town.

I will admit that at the major intersection out of town ,there are always self indulgent twits that approach the intersection as if they are going straight through when to not indicate their intention to turn left means that they can cut through, need their bits smashed into their skulls but on the whole it works brilliantly with people who care and abide by the rules.

Does anyone else who has lived in Auckland and used the Southern Motorway have a major issue with the crazy (my thoughts out there) controlled entrance to the motorway? Since these 3 second "You can go forward now" pieces of whatever have been installed, all I see is major tie ups of the motorway. Hell I have used them for 20+ years and now it is a nightmare to travel any distance - just because of this insanity. We all have brakes and wing mirrors, plus the ability to turn our heads - can we get rid of thus madness asap?

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10 years 7 months ago #406879 by Seaside

WillEyre;402770 wrote: Rearview mirror guaging (sic) is a skill I've heard little about.
It's a new one on me that having someone behind you or not determines whether or not you can turn left.

Are you saying that when you are turning left and someone is waiting to turn right, you do not check behind to see if there is straight ahead traffic preventing them from doing so, thus allowing you to turn right? So you wait for perhaps several minutes (holding up the other left turning traffic) until the right turning car turns right?

Will, you are a switched on bloke and I can see your argument that a bad driver will still be a bad driver, but the current rule leads to indecisiveness and/or risk taking because the left turning driver has to judge what the right turning driver will do in the given situation. Either that or they can wait for the right turning vehicle(s) to turn regardless of what's behind them. Which would be one way of safely approaching the situation but many people do not - they will turn left if they can (and many drivers behind are held up and grumpy). In Christchurch/Canterbury, it's a rare road where there is not be enough space for straight ahead traffic to pass a left turning driver.

Like you say, it's a done deal. It will be interested to hear what people who are opposed to the new rule think after a year or two of sucking and seeing.

Kids, beasts, and chillies in Swannanoa South.
www.farmaway.co.nz

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10 years 7 months ago #406895 by WillEyre

Seaside;402788 wrote: Are you saying that when you are turning left and someone is waiting to turn right, you do not check behind to see if there is straight ahead traffic preventing them from doing so, thus allowing you to turn right? So you wait for perhaps several minutes (holding up the other left turning traffic) until the right turning car turns right?

I don't entirely follow this - I thought I was turning left?
Nevermind.
My original argument really wasn't that a 'bad' driver will always be a bad driver regardless of the Rules - but that is true, I think.
My original point (although to complain now is pointless) was that changing the give way rule from the present one to the new doesn't really improve anything. I still stand by my contention that at least the old rule's logical. It's 'Left (turner) goes last' and you 'always give way to your right'. Now, it's going to be 'Right(turner) goes last' and you give way to your right, except at 'T' intersections, where you will give way to your left. Which one is the simpler is, I think , easy to see.
I rememember how the present rule was celebrated when it was introduced in 1977, because prior to that there was no rule that covered giving way when two or more vehicles were turning. The trouble, as I see it is, that people could attain a licence and still not understand it's simple operation.
Whether I would look in my mirror to see if I was 'holding up' anyone behind me would depend on the particular road situation, but generally I don't think I would be looking - and I also think that with an accident-free forty-five years of driving all types of vehicles, that I am a competent and courteous driver.
If the road was a single lane only (on my side) I don't think I'd be looking conscientiously in my mirror. What's the point? The driver behind is compelled to wait till I move. Me knowing someone's there doesn't change a thing. I'll turn as soon as I can and I'd judge that by what the car turning right in front of me is doing. (If he mucks about, then I'm around the corner and gone.)
I've never driven in Italy but I'm told that a very sensible rule applies there - 'Don't give a damn about anything behind you. Worry only about what's in front'. (In my anarchic way, I think I'd have to go along with that!)
Ed


I liked Occam's Razor so much, I bought the company.

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10 years 7 months ago #406898 by Shropshire Blue
Thankfully the law is changing, I've never like the current one.

In the UK where I was taught to drive it was drummed into you

Mirror
Signal
Manoeuvre

Here it seems to be just

Manoeuvre :(

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10 years 7 months ago #406907 by Seaside

WillEyre;402805 wrote:

Seaside;402788 wrote: thus allowing you to turn right?

If the road was a single lane only (on my side) I don't think I'd be looking conscientiously in my mirror. What's the point? The driver behind is compelled to wait till I move.

Typo on my part, sorry. It has been a long week. I should have said turning left. The current rule seems easier on paper as you have described, however I reckon the new rule is less ambiguous in practice. I have driven in the UK, US, Canada and Europe, as well as NZ for the last 14 years so I'm accustomed to the way it is here now. I consider myself relatively impartial and I think there will be a few years of horrible confusion while people adjust which I'm not particularly looking forward to. In the longer term, I think it will be for the better. Only time will tell.

Single lane roads in Christchurch (where I have done almost all of my driving) more often than not allows straight ahead traffic to get through. I have less experience than you (27 years of driving without an accident), but the current NZ rule turns me into more of an annoying ditherer than I was in the UK or Canada. Another good rule in Canada is that you can turn left (well, actually, it's right but the equivalent of left in NZ as they drive on the other side of the road) on a red light as long as nothing is coming.

Having said that, my least popular road rule is four way stops in Canada/the US where you give way to whoever got to the intersection before you (from whichever direction). I'll take your left turn gives way rule over a four way stop any day.

Driving in places like Italy, Greece, India, etc... scary... anarchy... yes, basically go when you can, be aware of all other traffic (including those overtaking you when you are indicating to turn right - I kid you not - but at least they toot their horn).


Kids, beasts, and chillies in Swannanoa South.
www.farmaway.co.nz

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10 years 7 months ago #406909 by Stikkibeek
That turning left rule has long confused people especially over the traffic behind you which are going straight through. Proceeding under those circumstances is called turning in the shadow of the following vehicle. Some who are behind, may be turning, but do not indicate until the last moment, thereby making those in front think they are going straight. This can lead to confusion even in careful drivers.
One good thing about heavy trucks, is that motorists in cars do tend to respect them, and in all my years driving a heavy truck I never had an accident.

Did you know, that what you thought I said, was not what I meant :S

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10 years 7 months ago #406911 by DiDi
Just cannot help laughing Seaside as I have driven in all those countries as well. Best was arriving in Naples, having driven from Germany to visit my sister in Naples. Thought I would get a break and said "Phew - you can drive now" Answer was "Like hell". So I drove in Naples, all up the Amalfi Coast (jeez that is some drop on the side of the road) etc and then all the way back to England. The only mistake I made was not putting the petrol cap back on the wee Ford Escort at the last petrol stop back.

I do think about foreign visitors to NZ though as I was driving in the USA and found myself on a road without any other traffic and suddenly lost my brain (I was early 20's at the time) and just stopped. I could not for the life of me work out which side of the road I was meant to be on. With traffic - it was easy but in this scenario - just lost it.

Also had an experience with a Canadian visitor driving our car that met another car on a narrow country road and his instinct was to swerve to the right! Total breakdown given my wee children were in the car as well!

I then had, some years down the line a near head on with American visitors to this country and instead of being angry, (despite the angst) I got it. It really isn't that hard in hindsight - you just stick a red arrow on the windscreen pointing left! How hard it that? Why is it not Law for all rental cars and vans in this country?

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10 years 7 months ago #406914 by Seaside

DiDi;402821 wrote: Also had an experience with a Canadian visitor driving our car that met another car on a narrow country road and his instinct was to swerve to the right! Total breakdown given my wee children were in the car as well!

That reminded me of a friend of my mother's who lives in a wee city in the rockies of Canada. He told me of the time (in the 90s) when he took the junior hockey team to Christchurch. Picked up a mini bus from a rental place on Morehouse Ave and he turned the wrong way into the three lane carriageway with oncoming traffic rather irrate as you can imagine. Morehouse Ave has concrete barriers in the middle so you can't just switch to the correct side of the road. Made my toes curl to hear his story, especially as so many parents had entrusted their kids into his care.... He felt really stink about it.

Kids, beasts, and chillies in Swannanoa South.
www.farmaway.co.nz

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10 years 7 months ago #406920 by canajanz

WillEyre;402748 wrote:

Yes Will that IS the one example of where you must look left.
It only makes sense if you look at it with a different logic
The through road is a through road ... people coming onto a through road would logically stop.
They mostly do already ...perhaps because there are so few uncontrolled intersections left.

canajanz

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10 years 7 months ago #406921 by canajanz
Lets see if I can get this all typed in before it timesout and dumps it all again

WillEyre;402742 wrote:

'When you are stopped in the middle of the road waiting to turn right the cars you are watching will all be infront of you and to your right... very visible
Its simple because ALL of the cars coming towards you have right of way'.
Of course. And that's exactly how it is with the present rule.
Not quite. The car coming towards you that wants to turn right must stop and give way to you. Then you must decide if the cars behind him are going to come around him, so you wait and guess.
New rule .. when the road in front of you is clear ..TURN

'It makes sense that turning across traffic should GIVE WAY'
Again, agreed. That's how it already is now.
Let me rephrase that.

It makes sense that the car turning across a traffic lane should give way to ALL oncoming traffic and only turn when the way is clear ... not like now where we demand that some of the oncoming traffic stops to wait for the guy turning across the lanes

So, it's still give way to the right. However, when turning, it's sometimes giveway to the left. And That's logical and easily understood?

Nope. The only time give way to the left applies is at an uncontrolled intersection where most people do that already (probably because there are so few of them)
The theory is that the car with (new) right of way is on a through road and so has priority.
In Germany they CALL those roads priority roads.

Ed

In our small town we have NO traffic lights. But we DO have a lot of roundabouts. At least 60% of the drivers have failed to understand where to indicate what.
So, although I disagree with you about the relative stupidity of the new rules, I agree that there will be mass confusion and doubtless several accidents while the drivers try to work it out.

I intend to pause going both directions to make sure what the other guy is doing

For whoever mentiioned driving on the wrong side and putting arrows in cars ...
ever got off the boat in Dover????? BIG signs everywhere saying KEEP LEFT
I too have my moments of (brief) panic as I tried to decide which side of the road I belonged on.
The simplest answer was The driver ALWAYS sits nearest the center line (as long as they are driving a car made for that country)

And for whovever mentioned american 4 way stops and for Will who worries about which window to look out of ...
We give way to the right (not the left) at 4 way stops because that gives the best view (due to perspective)

canajanz

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10 years 7 months ago #406922 by canajanz
Perhaps we can also debate the merits of teaching people what parallel parking is all about
How to do it
How to let someone do it

canajanz

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10 years 7 months ago #406950 by WillEyre

canajanz;402833 wrote: Lets see if I can get this all typed in before it timesout and dumps it all again

In our small town we have NO traffic lights. But we DO have a lot of roundabouts. At least 60% of the drivers have failed to understand where to indicate what.
So, although I disagree with you about the relative stupidity of the new rules, I agree that there will be mass confusion and doubtless several accidents while the drivers try to work it out.

I intend to pause going both directions to make sure what the other guy is doing

For whoever mentiioned driving on the wrong side and putting arrows in cars ...
ever got off the boat in Dover????? BIG signs everywhere saying KEEP LEFT
I too have my moments of (brief) panic as I tried to decide which side of the road I belonged on.
The simplest answer was The driver ALWAYS sits nearest the center line (as long as they are driving a car made for that country)

And for whovever mentioned american 4 way stops and for Will who worries about which window to look out of ...
We give way to the right (not the left) at 4 way stops because that gives the best view (due to perspective)


As I said above, the rule change is a fait accompli so there is little point in arguing each point.
My overriding argument originally was that the present rule is well understood by the great majority of drivers and worked/works when it is understood. Anyone who thinks that a purely arbitrary change will reduce accidents is soon to be in for a great disappointment.
Despite opinions expressed to the contrary, the present rule is at the very least consistent and logical - in that in every situation where someone must yield, the rule of giving way to the right prevails. (Sometimes, when cars are basically facing one another, who is actually on the 'right' it isn't always clear - then the simple reminder of 'left goes last' solves it.)
The new rules certainly don't make it any simpler than that, because there are now exceptions.
Under the new regime, giving way to the right still prevails, but there are times (and more than just in the 'T' example I gave), that it's 'giving way to the left'.
I'm not hung up on 'seeing' the car (I have to give way to) out of my driver's window - this merely illustrates the consistency of the present rule, in that if you're both turning and you're hit in the driver's door, then you are unarguably in the wrong. (If you've driven a lefthand drive car in NZ, you'd also know how difficult and dangerous it is sighting traffic across the passenger's seat.)
With the new rule, there are times when you will have to 'spot' the car you must give way to out the passenger's window, and if you're hit in the passenger's door you are in the wrong.(And you're also still at fault if you're hit in the driver's one!)
In conclusion, IMHO, I view the 'give way' rules as the cardinal rules of the road. Without them, and the understanding of them, we would have total chaos.
And the glaring mistake we make (in being warm and fuzzy,egalitarian and dumbed-down) , is that drivers can gain a full licence whilst not understanding the cardinal rules.
I don't really care what the rules are, provided everyone understands and adheres to them.
Unfortunately, that's not the situation now and it won't be this time next year.
Ed

I liked Occam's Razor so much, I bought the company.

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10 years 7 months ago #406951 by kaybe

WillEyre;402748 wrote:

I've lived here for 5 years and I don't think I've ever come across anyone who follows this rule (although admitedly, most of the intersections I use regularly are not unmarked ones). It seems to me that the change will simply bring the rules into line with current practice, and also means that at an unmarked intersection you follow the same rules as if the intersection were marked as a 'give way'. It makes sense to me that the red car should wait for the green car, as the green vehicle often reduces visibility of through traffic coming from the left, and the driver may also realise that they have chosen the wrong street and suddenly change their minds and zoom ahead :rolleyes:.

I too am really glad to see the back of the 'left turning vehicle gives way to vehicle turning right from the right', it's daft.

Actually, I have a roundabout question for you all. Many of the roundabouts here in Hamilton have 2 lanes entering the roundabout and two lanes merging on exiting the roundabout. When I learned to drive in Australia we were taught that on approaching a roundabout you always use the left lane if you are taking the first exit, and the right lane if you are going straight ahead or turning right. (In fact, many of the right lanes here are marked to reflect exactly that.) And yet most people here seem to use the left lane to go straight ahead, and then expect the person using the right lane to give way to them when merging on the other side, despite the 'give way to the right' rule of merging. Am I missing something in the road rules? I too try to be a courteous driver, but I have quite often been honked at by people who seem to think that they are using the roundabout more correctly than I!

Tomorrow is the day I will stop procrastinating.

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10 years 7 months ago #406953 by WillEyre

kaybe;402864 wrote: I've lived here for 5 years and I don't think I've ever come across anyone who follows this rule (although admitedly, most of the intersections I use regularly are not unmarked ones). It seems to me that the change will simply bring the rules into line with current practice, and also means that at an unmarked intersection you follow the same rules as if the intersection were marked as a 'give way'. It makes sense to me that the red car should wait for the green car, as the green vehicle often reduces visibility of through traffic coming from the left, and the driver may also realise that they have chosen the wrong street and suddenly change their minds and zoom ahead :rolleyes:.

I too am really glad to see the back of the 'left turning vehicle gives way to vehicle turning right from the right', it's daft.

Actually, I have a roundabout question for you all. Many of the roundabouts here in Hamilton have 2 lanes entering the roundabout and two lanes merging on exiting the roundabout. When I learned to drive in Australia we were taught that on approaching a roundabout you always use the left lane if you are taking the first exit, and the right lane if you are going straight ahead or turning right. (In fact, many of the right lanes here are marked to reflect exactly that.) And yet most people here seem to use the left lane to go straight ahead, and then expect the person using the right lane to give way to them when merging on the other side, despite the 'give way to the right' rule of merging. Am I missing something in the road rules? I too try to be a courteous driver, but I have quite often been honked at by people who seem to think that they are using the roundabout more correctly than I!


I certainly don't claim any expertise in all this, so I'm not going to stick my neck ouit on double-lane roundabouts, amongst other things.
I am surprised that you say you've never met a person who understands the present rule.
I, for my part have hardly ever spoken to anyone who doesn't. (I've seen many drivers, strangers to me, who don't, though.)
For many years I owned a sizeable fleet of trucks - I can assure you that everyone of my drivers knew it in their sleep.
It could just be that we talk to different types of people.
Ed

I liked Occam's Razor so much, I bought the company.

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10 years 7 months ago #406954 by Shropshire Blue
Have to say in the four years I've been here I can count on one hand the number of times I've been let out of the bottom of the T by a vehicle waiting to turn right, twice it was a bus.

I've lost count of the number of times I've been waiting at a roundabout when vehicles in the land closest to the middle ( two lane roundabouts) have been indicating to turn right but have in fact gone straight on :(

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