Horsey People - Must Watch - Horse Abuse at World Reining Champs

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10 years 11 months ago #28109 by Toast
US Rider Craig Schmersal warming up at the World Champs

Note the bored look on the officials' faces and their inactivity to do anything.

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10 years 10 months ago #385110 by witheze
Never the less I think there will be a strong stand taken by FEI. Dressage riders are being accused of abuse too, and other disciplines probably think "forcing" a horse to jump huge fences is abuse too. It's all in the eye of the beholder. I have quit watching Monty Roberts since I saw him whirring backwards after a jolting halt...........

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10 years 10 months ago #385119 by Stikkibeek
In dressage terms that would be considered seriously over-bending. Wonder if this is common practise with western style riding. Haven't they learned that horses look ahead, not at the ground.

Did you know, that what you thought I said, was not what I meant :S

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10 years 10 months ago #385120 by Ghilly
I don't know anything about horse riding, apart from ' hang on and try not to fall off, but this horse..... with it's head pulled way down like that and I can't be sure but does that bloke have sharp spurs on cos the horses coat looks a bit red where the spurs would come in contact...... I wonder how he'd like someone on HIS back with sharp spurs and his head being pulled down.... just non rider my opinion. If a fly can make a horse twitch it's skin when it lands on it, surely it can feel a nudge by a heel pressing into it's side?

I feel in this case, it's the bloke who wants to win and buggar the horse, as long as he gets the acclaim. If he's not 'guilty' of anything, why is he so defensive with threats of suing? Hmmmm, he protesteth too much about the protest!

Yakut

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10 years 10 months ago #385138 by Toast
I understand that the reining horses in the USA don't last in competition beyond 8 years old.

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10 years 10 months ago #385280 by Toast
There's an article on the Equestrian Sport NZ website re new reining rules, partly as a result of this incident. Also says that officials say they gave several verbal warnings but there was no proof.

New Reining Rules article

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10 years 10 months ago #385283 by DiDi
OK I am not into Western reining but what the hell am I missing here? I see a guy (ok far too big for the horse) who has an over bent horse (in the dressage world that is called resisting the bit), the guy is galloping it towards a wall but sitting back well before the wall to give the horse the message to stop - it does in time and then takes a few steps backwards. What is all this abuse people are talking about just because the horse looks miserable over bending? Is that abuse?

God knows I have seen abuse of young horses when being broken in so seriously guys (knowing that I never did that with a horse because I would have fallen off) what are you seeing that I am not seeing?

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10 years 10 months ago #385309 by GloPony
[:0]

DiDi;378913 wrote: OK What is all this abuse people are talking about just because the horse looks miserable over bending? Is that abuse?


Absolutely it is! [:0]

That's not a horse resisting anything. :( I think what you're referring to is horses 'evading' the bit by tucking their heads behind the vertical... there's always a reaon for evasion too but this is certainly NOT evading the bit.

Google 'roll kur' which is the dressage version of the same technique. There is LOTS of scientific proof re: the harm it does to the horses let alone the fact that even just breathing is difficult for them in that position. :(

You really don't see jerking on a curb bit like that as bad? [:0]:confused: You don't see how uncomfortable the horse is & worried about it's mouth?? :(

I hope if you've seen abuse, you've reported it. It's not on, in ANY shape or form!! [}:)]

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10 years 10 months ago #385362 by tonic
as glopony said this type of over bending is used in dressage too (rolkur or rollkur it is called), and there is lots of scientific study showing the damage it does, pain is the least of it.... being asked to run blind trusting a rider that is hurting you must be terrifying, however the best riders in the world are using it and winning so it does not seem that those in power want to rock the boat for the welfare of the horses...

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10 years 10 months ago #385363 by kindajojo
Its sad that the western style of riding which is essentially a discipline for handling cattle has been so badly abused. How many of these horses actually work with cattle, I doubt they could in that position. A well trainied western horse working is a pleasure to watch but this is just disgusting.
Similarly we see some classes going that way ...a hunter should be that a hunter some horses in that class dont look like they could jump their own shadows.

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10 years 10 months ago #385370 by DiDi
Having questioned what the guy was doing so wrong, I have been back on the website to observe what he was doing AND also looked at the different curb bits that are used.

Believe me, I am not fighting on this topic but have to ask the question. There are many people going "Yeah" and get over yourselves to those that have a problem with his training methods so is this a case of, in this case, on this site, our NZ (and admittedly possibly not horse trainers in this disipline - overseas people) horse people going this is cruel without having looked at what curb bit he is using (there are many different actions) and just jumping into reacting to something we don't understand. One outcome - if the horse had such a big issue with the curb bit, why wasn't he avoiding it by throwing his head?

I'm just not prepared to watch an obviously calculated video on You Tube and make a decision to destroy the guy. I have been here in Tuakau and watched the
"poor hen" advocates standing on the side of the road with more TV3 people than protesters and as far as I knew, the farm had already been shut down.

Is it completely ridiculous to assume that people all around the world (including NZ) are putting their own spin on what is acceptable for a guy who has trained this horse for a number of years that is winning for him. Is it possible that the horse is bred to do this and is blissfully happy to do what his owner wants him to do?

I'm sorry but I did not see any resistance from the horse and yes you can take the "beaten or yanked into submission" stance but this horse has been in training since he was two so if this was so wrong, his head would have exploded way before now. It is their breed - not a TB out of NZ. I am also aware of German breeds that here in NZ blow their stacks at being pushed with the kindest instruction to do what they don't want to do.

Sorry, having watched the pull on the reins and no reaction from the horse, I am not with you on this one as we would have seen resistance and there was none in what I saw.

I will admit that my glasses are severely scratched and in need of replacement and I could not find my magnifying glass in an attempt to identify the bit used but are we overreacting along with people that have no contact and never have had with horses and the skill of cowboy reining?

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10 years 10 months ago #385398 by kindajojo
Didi, in part I agree with you but what sort of training did the horse have to go through to get to that point...
I have seen people in NZ take a TB and using side reins very tight, lunge the horse in this position. The horse will salavate extremely.
A TB is trained to stretch and be "long" when runnning that how the muscles develop, to mechanically tie it back is the same as you wandering around with your chin on you chest and then you head between your legs.
Yep if you do it often enough you will get the result but at what cost.

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10 years 10 months ago #385616 by GloPony
DiDi, as tonic mentiond there is LOTS of evidence that proves that this method of training is barbaric & does LOTS of damage.

I'm sorry you're not able to see the horse's discomfort from the video but for those who are experienced with horses, it is VERY obvious. Can you see the horse constantly 'fussing' with its mouth? (Opening & closing...)

Having managed to get the horse to carry itself in such an unnatural & uncomfortable way, I'm not suprised you're not seeing any major resistance to the bit. It's already learned that resistance is futile. :( So all you actually see is the desperate opening & closing of it's mouth as that's ALL it can do.

I can assure this is not just a bunch of well meaning 'do gooders' getting their knickers in a twist, this is well documented abuse which is being addressed by the FEI (in dressage) & they're now being pushed to put a stop to it in ALL disciplines.

I can also assure you that not all horses explode with this sort of treatment. Those that do, usually end up discarded. The ones that don't just 'shut down' mentally in an effort to avoid the discomfort & they're the poor creatures that continue to perform under these conditions.

The reason why it's caused such a stir all around the world is that NOWHERE is this considered acceptable. There is a global shift towards what's best for the horse as opposed to winning at all costs so it's only now that people are starting to stand up against these (top riders) & let them know that it's NOT acceptable. It's a shame it's taken public pressure to push the FEI into action as they're meant to be the advocates for horse welfare in sport. [:(!]

Sorry but there is NO WAY that horse can be called blissfully happy by an stretch of the imagination! :(

Just as a comparison on reining champions... here's Stacy Westfall winning the reining freestyle in 2006.
Notice the difference in the horse's demeanour & how much nicer the over all picture is. [^][;)]

And here's more of Stacy sharing how she trains - www.youtube.com/user/nighthawkess#p/u/5/AQDERcfJH1A Note that even though her horse lowers it's head to the ground when she asks for the 'back up', it still has freedom to stretch through it's neck. It's nose is pointed at the ground rather than it's ears.

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10 years 10 months ago #385635 by Anne
The other issue with this was the abuse the rider hurled at the camera people when it was being filmed and the threats made around sueing for defamation etc. I did see a short piece of filming that included the rider's voice and comments to the camera people - but it was pulled and I haven't bothered to go and look again.

Under FEI rules, any jeking of the reins is considered abuse and that is clearly shown here. I even saw a FEI steward tell off a show rider (which isn't covered by FEI) for doing it to a horse.

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