National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT)

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11 years 10 months ago #346856 by ame

Sue;336005 wrote: ...and I agree with all your statements re slack border control too. Yes the $200 fine is peanuts! I can't believe all that food stuff that they (mainly Asians) try to get into the country and all they get is a slap on the hand and a warning that next time they might get a fine!

Bonus points for playing the race card. Do you have any evidence?

I found these stories about unscrupulous Asians sneaking in and attempting to evade MAF's strict controls:
nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/767070...-insect-importation/
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/30/enter...ent/main683931.shtml
www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC1006/S00034.htm

Oh, wait. Never mind.

A

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11 years 10 months ago #346859 by NZ Appaloosas

Sue;335701 wrote:
If there was say if people got sick with an outbreak of E.Coli, and yes it has happened in beef overseas, and the powers that be traced it to mince say in a particular supermarket, they could trace back from where the meat had been purchased, the date stamp on the box/packaging would tell them what day it had been processed and then armed with that information, whose animals were killed on that day at a particular works and maybe even tie in samples taken at the works and to a particular farmers beasts. Actually E.Coli is probably not a good example because that might have been a contaminastion issue at the works, rather than a particular sick animal, but you get the idea.


It's actually a good example since there have been instances in the USA where this particular scenario has played, with some slight differences. 1) Contaminated mince sold to burger chain, distributed to restaurants in various states, several individuals fell sick (some died), and they had to trace back from the persons to the original farm. 2) Contaminated spinach sold to distributor, sold to various supermarket chains in various states, several individuals fell ill, and the contaminated spinach was traced back to the farm where there was an unknown sewage leak into the farm's irrigation system (The Mentalist or some similar show did a variation of this for an episode).

So, NAIS/NAIT does make sense in the larger scheme of things, and unfortunately, the small holder is going to end up with the short stick as this is an instant where the individual's right is not greater than the majority's right. If someone is not moving livestock, then they won't be too terribly inconvenienced as they won't have to worry about filling out much paperwork during the lifetime of their stock.

Diane


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11 years 10 months ago #346860 by NZ Appaloosas

PeterNZ;335709 wrote: I was thinking again about this. And I was wondering what actually my problem is. My problem is that I just feel uncomfortable that the government collects more and more data about me and my life. This is my main issue. Can you understand that? I hope so. And on top of that I do not see any benefit. Sorry!

I just don't trust the government. And I do not believe that they have anything in mind which will help me or people like me. Too many things just benefit the big industries. So why the hell do I have to put up with it.

So what's next? FarmOnline is on the horizon. What is that then? Collecting data about my property, the purpose of my business ect. Great.Next thing we need to register our apple trees. There are diseases which spread form tree to tree. And how many kg of fruit we collect. And we need to count the eggs we get. And so on.

I know Isla this might sound cynical. But me as a person and an individual , I am scared of this. And most people just follow the herd so to speak. Nobody is asking any questions. And why would they, nobody cares about our questions.

I get frustrated meanwhile by the amount of regulations and rules. You can't do anything without being registered, having a license and getting government approval. Where does this end?

Cheers

Peter


File income, GST or other sorts of tax returns? Pay rates? Chances are you are already giving the gov't a lot of this information.

Diane


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11 years 10 months ago #346878 by PeterNZ

NZ Appaloosas;336139 wrote: It's actually a good example since there have been instances in the USA where this particular scenario has played, with some slight differences. 1) Contaminated mince sold to burger chain, distributed to restaurants in various states, several individuals fell sick (some died), and they had to trace back from the persons to the original farm. 2) Contaminated spinach sold to distributor, sold to various supermarket chains in various states, several individuals fell ill, and the contaminated spinach was traced back to the farm where there was an unknown sewage leak into the farm's irrigation system (The Mentalist or some similar show did a variation of this for an episode).

Oh yes, I am reading Fast Food Nation at the moment by Eric Schlosser. He is writing about the exact thing you mentioned above. They weren't able to track the meat to the farm. Despite all the tagging etc. The recall got delayed and played down and when they actually got their act together it was too late and most of the meat has already been consumed. The example you gave is actually raised by Schlosser as an example how the system fails us and how it is designed to benefit the big companies. The meat companies immediately argued it is the fault of the farmer and the feedlot operators. They told USDA to go to the source which is the farmer. Then it showed that it was actually from the meat processors and eventually the plan was shut down.
This all happened in the 90ies!

Cheers

Peter


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11 years 10 months ago #346880 by PeterNZ

NZ Appaloosas;336140 wrote: File income, GST or other sorts of tax returns? Pay rates? Chances are you are already giving the gov't a lot of this information.

Diane

And how exactly is this supposed to make me feel more positive about NAIT? Should I think now "Ah well, they have so much data about me it doesn't matter if they get more!"

I don't see your point.

Cheers

Peter


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11 years 10 months ago #346915 by Ronney

ame;336136 wrote: Bonus points for playing the race card. Do you have any evidence?

I found these stories about unscrupulous Asians sneaking in and attempting to evade MAF's strict controls:
nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/767070...-insect-importation/
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/30/enter...ent/main683931.shtml
www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC1006/S00034.htm

Oh, wait. Never mind.

A


Ame, it isn't a "race card" at all and who needs evidence about something that is very well publisiced - Asians do make up a large proportion of our tourist visitors and they do have an unfortunate habit of trying to bring food and other stuff into NZ that shouldn't be here.

As for the links, they are selective and I could google around and find four links to suit my purposes too.

Cheers,
Ronnie

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11 years 10 months ago #346917 by Ronney

NZ Appaloosas;336140 wrote: File income, GST or other sorts of tax returns? Pay rates? Chances are you are already giving the gov't a lot of this information.Diane


.... and Peter's answer:

PeterNZ;336160 wrote: And how exactly is this supposed to make me feel more positive about NAIT? Should I think now "Ah well, they have so much data about me it doesn't matter if they get more!"

I don't see your point.
CheersPeter


Diane, I don't see your point either. Because local and regional government already have information on me, should I too just shrug my shoulders and say "what the hell difference does it make if they have a bit more".

As somebody who had over $22,000.00 removed from their bank accounts by another government department without our knowledge I am, not surprisingly, very, very chary of having any government department having too much more knowledge about me, us and what we do. The fact that they could do this despite that their figures were badly flawed, is very frightening. We got $15K back, to try and retrieve the rest of it would have bankrupted us. That isn't democracy, that is dictatorship.

So while, on the surface, a NAIT scheme may appear to be a good idea, be very careful about where it could lead. Look past the end of your own noses.

Cheers,
Ronnie

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11 years 10 months ago #346982 by Stikkibeek

Kate;336245 wrote: www.stuff.co.nz/technology/4141855/High-...-new-path-for-Brazil


I think this argument is flawed from the outset.

The South American giant is preparing to use its first locally-designed microchip in cattle earrings, a device that could eventually help authorities crack down on destruction of the Amazon rain forest caused by roaming herds.

I was very surprised that the wandering cattle are being blamed for the destruction of the Amazon rain forest!:rolleyes: I think it far more likely that it is the wholesale felling and burning of the rainforests that is damaging them.

I can see the headlines now. :p

Wandering cattle rounded up and imprisoned

These wandering mobs have been arrested for destroying the Amazon rainforest. Authorities have confiscated their chainsaws and matches in an effort to make it clear that this sort of vandalism will not be tolerated!:rolleyes:

Spokesperson for the Amazon Forest Protection society, Mr. Tree Branch says, "I hope this destruction by roaming herds will now stop."

Did you know, that what you thought I said, was not what I meant :S

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11 years 10 months ago #346983 by sod
:D:D Thats about how silly it is too :D:D any reason to do it is put forth

Having time is a measure of enthusiasm:rolleyes:

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11 years 10 months ago #347679 by NZ Appaloosas

PeterNZ;336158 wrote: Oh yes, I am reading Fast Food Nation at the moment by Eric Schlosser. He is writing about the exact thing you mentioned above. They weren't able to track the meat to the farm. Despite all the tagging etc. The recall got delayed and played down and when they actually got their act together it was too late and most of the meat has already been consumed. The example you gave is actually raised by Schlosser as an example how the system fails us and how it is designed to benefit the big companies. The meat companies immediately argued it is the fault of the farmer and the feedlot operators. They told USDA to go to the source which is the farmer. Then it showed that it was actually from the meat processors and eventually the plan was shut down.
This all happened in the 90ies!

Cheers

Peter


If the book you are reading only covers incidents in the 1990s, then it doesn't cover the incidents I mention, albeit it may cover similar, prior, incidents which are most likely the driving force behind creating the ability to track from end user to originator.

Diane


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11 years 10 months ago #347680 by NZ Appaloosas

PeterNZ;336160 wrote: And how exactly is this supposed to make me feel more positive about NAIT? Should I think now "Ah well, they have so much data about me it doesn't matter if they get more!"

I don't see your point.

Cheers

Peter


My point is...if the gov't wanted to use the sort of information that would be obtained thru' something like NAIT for "nefarious" reasons, they already have the ability to obtain this information, and do not need yet another vehicle for obtaining this information.

Diane


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11 years 10 months ago #347681 by NZ Appaloosas

Ronney;336201 wrote: .... and Peter's answer:

Diane, I don't see your point either. Because local and regional government already have information on me, should I too just shrug my shoulders and say "what the hell difference does it make if they have a bit more".

So while, on the surface, a NAIT scheme may appear to be a good idea, be very careful about where it could lead. Look past the end of your own noses.

Cheers,
Ronnie


As stated, and as you illustrated, as was said in the Bionic Man...'[They] have the technology' and the data already. I don't have a problem with people not wanting NAIT...I'm not sure I'm "fer it" or "agin' it". However, trotting out as reasons to be against it that the gov't is going to obtain "personal" information, which the gov't already has access to, is not sound reasoning. I see statements like that as emotive based, not logic based, and if someone wants to convince me that XYZ is good/bad, it has to be based on logic and reason, not fear and emotions.

Diane


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11 years 10 months ago #347699 by LongRidge
Personally I see this as important but at the moment, and for the next 15 or 20 years it will be totally useless.
I have no problem with marking our animals, and almost every sheep, goat, cow and dog is identified when they come onto the property, with either a tag or a collar.
But eartags get ripped out, and I object to put another tag into an animal that knows how to rip out a tag, until it is absolutely necessary. With some of our sheep, goats and cattle, their ears would be so shredded by now if I had replaced every lost tag that the ear wouldn't hold a tag. Fortunately I know how to re-use a tag, so that wouldn't be too much of a cost for those tags that I manage to find, but the effort and danger involved does not warrant the return.
I have tagged my animals for many years. The freezing works have not been able to use that information to either their or my benefit for our cattle and goats. I have received ridiculous information back about someone else's animals, from my tagged cattle and goats. I understand that the use of radio devices inside a concrete and metal box with lots of electrical currents inside it, ie a freezing works, is very prone to error. I am totally unable to understand how the information on an unreadable tag is going to be able to follow every part of the carcase and offal into it's final box. Until this is able to be done, then pasture to plate is impossible. So why not stay with a cheaper visual method, even if it is just as ineffectual?
With my sheep, they get weighed before they go OE. From that information I can trace every weight record back to the sheep/lamb that it was. If one sheep/lamb shows up as an unexpected dead weight then I know if or not our local freezing works have got our ovines mixed up with someone elses. Our works does better than 99% traceability to the carcase weighing scales. After that I don't know how good their traceability is, but my eartagging my animals won't help at all, that late in the processing.
Every year I receive from MAF a survey asking how many animals and beehives I have on my property, which I fill in as accurately as possible. I cannot keep track of the rabbits, the wild pigs, the feral deer, and the Paradice Ducks. If everyone else were doing this correctly then MAF knows exactly who has domestic farm animals, where the animals are, and where the owners are. That it didn't totally work on Waiheke should show that the system needs modifying and policing, rather than starting again at the beginning. Relearning a new system will eventually get us back to where we are now, so why not improve what we have got. I also wonder if satellite photography could be used in a disease outbreak to show which animals are where, again making tagging unnecessary.
In my opinion, NAIT is a scheme made by very clever people to extract lots of money from us fools, the farmers, for a purpose which will require them to do lots of work if their foolish scheme ever has to be used.

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11 years 10 months ago #347741 by PeterNZ

NZ Appaloosas;337027 wrote: However, trotting out as reasons to be against it that the gov't is going to obtain "personal" information, which the gov't already has access to, is not sound reasoning. I see statements like that as emotive based, not logic based, and if someone wants to convince me that XYZ is good/bad, it has to be based on logic and reason, not fear and emotions.

I am glad you are such an objective unemotional person. But I somethings also go with my feeling! Everybody is different I guess.

Since when does the government know how many calves are born on my farm? You gave the example of Gst. I give the government a total sum what I spent and how much I made and thats it.

It is about feeding the government with more and more data. When does it stop? And who has access to it? See the example with the car license plate on the forum here. Everybody can get my details for a fee. Is this acceptable? Nobody asked me as far as I am aware if I am happy to make this information public.

I suggest if you are looking for facts to compare apples with apples.

Cheers

Peter


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