National Animal Identification and Tracing (NAIT)

More
11 years 10 months ago #346409 by PeterNZ
We need a traceability system.
Don't we have one already? What's wrong with the existing system? How will NAIT be different? From the NAIT proposal ( strongly recommend this document):

Data on properties is incomplete – Property data in the agricultural and horticultural
sector has 85 percent coverage with enterprise data (ownership, management, stock
and crop details) only 65 percent accurate. Information on properties other than those
where cattle and deer are located (required to be registered for bovine Tb) is limited.
Under the Biosecurity (Animal Identification Systems) Regulations there is no
requirement for identification to be linked to properties. Current official identification
schemes do not have specifications for the capture and maintenance of accurate
property information as the location information is collected through different
regulatory powers.
Data on livestock is incomplete – Animals less than 30-days-old are not required to
be recorded because these are deemed low risk for Tb infection. Animal movements
from breeding farms, young animals moving between farms, and stock movements
between transport operators, saleyards and to non-contiguous locations within farm
enterprises are not always recorded. Records are largely herd-based (except for dairy)
and records of individual animal movements are voluntary for the main part except for
imported animals, hormone growth promotant-treated animals, Tb test-positive
animals or animals moved from Tb infected herds. While this may be sufficient for
animals going directly from farm of birth to slaughter, some estimated 30 percent of
deer and 65 percent of cattle which go to other properties usually lose whole-of-life
traceability, depending on the availability of sales records or Animal Status
Declaration forms.

How will NAIT fix this?

In a case of a disease outbreak we need to know where each animal is.
And then? What are they going to do then? So they know I have 20 beefies running around my property. They know who has 2 bulls at the Warkworth A&P show. How is this of benefit when a disease breaks out? Do they insinuate that I'll hide them away? Isn't that assuming I will break the law? Won't they put up road blocks and stop any cattle movement? Or wil they rather send out their inspectors who will make sure that all animals are accounted for?

The system will be enforced by the eauthorities.
How? How will this work? A MAF inspector shows up unanounced and requests a farmer to muster all his cattle? Or wil the inspector have to wander around the farm and find every cattle, catch it and scan it?

What about wild cattle and deer? Don't they pose a risk to the system? They wander around the New Zealand landscape completely unaware that they shoul'd have gone to the next registration office or local post shop.

The point with stolen cattle is a valid point. I am sure there are farmers who wouldn't notice when a cattle has been stolen. Or fell into a ravine or a tomo. Or died of some other causes. I am talking big farmers on rugged country. So when the inspector shows up an dthey muster their cattle and one is missing will the fire up the helicopter and go for a search and rescue mission?

The example I raised was from Michael Pollan's books where he mentions the microchippng system in the US. I did some more reading last night and found out that the US abandoned the requirement to have RFID or microchips for tagging. So they went back to the old simple ear tag system.

Again from Michael Pollans books where he says that the Canadian system was a failure, the Australian system was a failure, none of the databases did actually match the reality. So what will New Zealand do different and better to get their system up and running? And working!

So extend this to all the other lifestock. Which it will have to be extended to otherwise the arguments pro NAIT wouldn't make any sense. Why trace all cattle but no sheep? I am sorry to say that and it sounds like bad farming but I guess we all know sheep are more "perishable" than cattle. So the day the inspector shows up the farmer with 6000 sheep finds out that 5 of them died of flystrike. What now? And how about all the feral goats? We had days if an inspector would have visited us we would have been in trouble explaining that the group of 15 goats on our property are not ours! And that I was just on my way to the house to get my .22.

Now accroding to Government web sites the system will cost around $7.092 Mill to set up and $8.67 Mill to make it operational or operate the system. An RFID Tag in adition to the normal tag (you still require at this stage) is $4.95. Another estimated $1.2 Mill cost incurred for setting up sale yards and meat processing plants etc.

From the NAIT web site :

NAIT will safeguard farmers’ incomes by protecting New Zealand’s excellent animal health and food safety reputation in overseas markets, meeting growing consumer expectations for traceable food products and by enhancing biosecurity.

Here is an article which shows Fed Farmers stand on this . There are some interesting issues raised and I wonder what the answers wil be. One interesting point raised is

We must further ask why the dairy sector is being asked to fund a generous share of the NAIT system for meat traceability when, primarily, their production is milk based?

Don't get me wrong, I am the first to join into a system if I can see the benefits to me or the community/nation/breeders etc. But I want to see these benefits and I want to see that they can make it work and that it is worthwhile.

Cheers

Peter


Everything you need to make your own cheese at home
www.CottageCrafts.co.nz
[:D]LSB Members will get first order (over $10) shipping cost free. Just mention your LSB user name! [:D]

My private blog (Caution! Contains opinions and thoughts which may offend some viewers.)

Change the World! One Meal...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346416 by Isla
My familiarity with NAIT was recently gained by some research and questioning of the people putting the system together. I will answer from my own recollections.

PeterNZ;335616 wrote: We need a traceability system.
Don't we have one already? What's wrong with the existing system? How will NAIT be different? From the NAIT proposal ( strongly recommend this document):

How will NAIT fix this?

There's a big hole in the current system: calves are born on a property from which they may be moved, possibly more than once, in their first month of life before tagging is legally required. That means there is not whole-of-life traceability. NAIT will fix that.

PeterNZ;335616 wrote: In a case of a disease outbreak we need to know where each animal is.
And then? What are they going to do then? So they know I have 20 beefies running around my property. They know who has 2 bulls at the Warkworth A&P show. How is this of benefit when a disease breaks out? Do they insinuate that I'll hide them away? Isn't that assuming I will break the law? Won't they put up road blocks and stop any cattle movement? Or wil they rather send out their inspectors who will make sure that all animals are accounted for?

The people who couldn't be found on Waiheke during that hoax FMD scare were not intentionally avoiding detection, but they still couldn't quickly and easily be found. Animals at risk may therefore have been missed in the ensuing monitoring and control period. Much time and resources were lost in the tracing of those owners and the animals they may (or may not) have owned. In the case of something like FMD, time is of the essence. Hours will matter.

PeterNZ;335616 wrote: The system will be enforced by the authorities.
How? How will this work? A MAF inspector shows up unanounced and requests a farmer to muster all his cattle? Or wil the inspector have to wander around the farm and find every cattle, catch it and scan it?

Don't know how enforcement will work, that had not been settled when I asked. But do you steal your neighbour's sheep just because there is no police officer patrolling the boundary? No.

PeterNZ;335616 wrote: What about wild cattle and deer? Don't they pose a risk to the system? They wander around the New Zealand landscape completely unaware that they shoul'd have gone to the next registration office or local post shop.

Sarcasm is unbecoming. NAIT tagged animals have traceability in regard to the properties upon which they have lived, which includes the TB (and any other) risk profile of those properties. Wild population/pest control is outside a NAIT discussion.

PeterNZ;335616 wrote: The point with stolen cattle is a valid point. I am sure there are farmers who wouldn't notice when a cattle has been stolen. Or fell into a ravine or a tomo. Or died of some other causes. I am talking big farmers on rugged country. So when the inspector shows up an dthey muster their cattle and one is missing will the fire up the helicopter and go for a search and rescue mission?

Really big farms will probably have their own tag readers. They'll know when beasts go missing when their numbers don't show up during yarding. If a farmer loses a beast and doesn't bother to find where it is, perhaps they ought to be doing something other than farming.

PeterNZ;335616 wrote: The example I raised was from Michael Pollan's books where he mentions the microchippng system in the US. I did some more reading last night and found out that the US abandoned the requirement to have RFID or microchips for tagging. So they went back to the old simple ear tag system.

How dependent on exporting is the US?

PeterNZ;335616 wrote: Again from Michael Pollans books where he says that the Canadian system was a failure, the Australian system was a failure, none of the databases did actually match the reality. So what will New Zealand do different and better to get their system up and running? And working!

I think one ought to read more than one opinion of such systems. There are many voices calling foul on these systems, but those for whom they are working well are probably just getting on with it.

I am personally pretty unhappy about the added cost and bother of the new system, but when I came to this industry 15 years ago, I was astonished that there was no traceability system already in place. There are other real problems in the meat industry, but this potentially fixes one of them.

PeterNZ;335616 wrote: So extend this to all the other lifestock. Which it will have to be extended to otherwise the arguments pro NAIT wouldn't make any sense. Why trace all cattle but no sheep? I am sorry to say that and it sounds like bad farming but I guess we all know sheep are more "perishable" than cattle. So the day the inspector shows up the farmer with 6000 sheep finds out that 5 of them died of flystrike. What now? And how about all the feral goats? We had days if an inspector would have visited us we would have been in trouble explaining that the group of 15 goats on our property are not ours! And that I was just on my way to the house to get my .22.

Phone NAIT hotline and ask them. Then come back and tell us the answer!

PeterNZ;335616 wrote: We must further ask why the dairy sector is being asked to fund a generous share of the NAIT system for meat traceability when, primarily, their production is milk based?

Where do all dairy cows end up after a few years of milking? Where does all that minced meat go to? They are in the end, just more meat, with the equivalent requirement for traceability.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346445 by feedqueen
I went thru this at length via email on the website prior to calving starting. My understanding is that THIS years calves ie bobbys/beefies etc which are not being reared by the farmer do not have to leave the farm with an EID. Often they will not have any tag anyway or maybe a bobby tag which the calf rearer puts one in before they on sell it.
Those who buy these calves and rear them will as from the 1 Oct 2011 will need to replace any tags which are not with EIDs. So as from next season the farm of origin will be required to put EID tags in any stock they are selling .

I am talking here regarding calves from dairy farms only, I assume the real beef producers will (this year only )either choose to EID or not depending on what age they are being sold at.

I am looking at my invoice now for 300 tags EID @ $4.75 + GST each ordered through LIC. Eeek, it all adds to the cost of calfrearing and these were economy ones!. Has any one had these at a better rate elsewhere?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346447 by Isla
You're right, we don't have to tag this year with NAIT tags. But many of us will, to save the next owner of our animals (or ourselves) having to retag those cattle by next November because they'll still be alive, and rather larger by then.

Whenever you do it, they go in the RIGHT ear.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346449 by Pumpkingirl
Eventually NAIT will include sheep and goats, but trying to be realistic in setting up such a system, the powers that be decided to start with cattle and deer first, and I presume they chose cattle over sheep because so much of our country is more dependant on cattle. I just assume deer got lumped in at the same time because they are under TB control the same as cattle are, and there aren't that many of them.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346450 by Isla
NAIT will work in tandem with AHB tagging in the mean time, eventually probably replacing it, so it makes sense to have deer included, as you say.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346461 by Stu_R
ok ... so this means then ( as PG says it will in future include sheep) that my little mob of 13 sheep and 7 lambs, none of which will ever leave the farm ( well the wethers might but that will be straight into my freezer) are going to cost me about another $100 for eartags ?
For what reason ? ... for no reason as they are my sheep, they are not being sold, they are not going to shows, they are not going to the works ... they are on grass control duty and to make me a few replacement ewe lambs ( which will stay on farm to) and some more freezer fillers for me.
Ok i understand the commercial outfits needing traceablility to a certain extent
But in same breath , i cant see how if some one buys meat from a suppermarket and then gets sick from it for some reason , how the hell even with these fancy new tags, it can ever be traced back to which exact animal it came from anyway
Just my 2 cents worth :)
2 cents i can afford .. $100 i cant

5 retired Greyhounds ( Bridgette , Lilly, GoGo,Sam and now Lenny) 15 friendly sheep all of whom are named and come when you call them :) , 2 goats, Mollie and Eee Bee :
Olive trees , .. old bugger doing the best he can with no money or land :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346465 by Isla
Pay your two cents to NAIT! Make submissions. Tell them about the sorts of situations in which the system will not work. Read what FedFarmers and such groups have said and what the responses were. They might still take into account your views for sheep - I suspect it's way too late to start submitting opposing views on cattle and deer.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346466 by Stu_R
:) might just have to do that Isla :) ... things that hit me in my non-existant pocket, and for no good reason that i can see at all in the case of my sheep and even Rosie goat/sheep/cow pee me off ... so yep will have to investigate further :)

5 retired Greyhounds ( Bridgette , Lilly, GoGo,Sam and now Lenny) 15 friendly sheep all of whom are named and come when you call them :) , 2 goats, Mollie and Eee Bee :
Olive trees , .. old bugger doing the best he can with no money or land :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346485 by Pumpkingirl
The problem is Stu, the powers that be will still need to know where your sheep are, and how many there are.

The scenario I did for a story a couple of years ago on Foot & Mouth Disease shows none of us are immune, even if we only have a couple of animals.

NOTE THIS IS A MADE UP SCENARIO!
In that scenario, a neighbour about 500m from me (as the crow flies) would get FMD in his pig farm. I'm downwind from him and FMD is air borne, so my farm, and the two huge dairy farms on either side of me would be hit first, then the two really enormous ones after that.
Every single cloven-hoofed animal within a certain radius of that pig farm (and probably more on the windward side) would have to be culled, ASAP, and that means within the day.
Now, on a big farm with managers on site 24 hours a day, lists of animals, all tagged, no problem. But me, on a small farm, with just 15, I'm not on any list, it's very hard to see my livestock from the road, sometimes I'm not home, and all of this has to occur within hours.
NOTE THIS IS A MADE UP SCENARIO!

That's why I think your few sheep and my few goats will be just as important to the system as our neighbours with hundreds. If there are dozens and dozens of us little farmers with a few animals, as a group we're just as important but far more difficult to manage without records.

To be really cynical, I think authorities will see block owners as probably even more of a risk, because a professional farm owner/manager is less likely to break biosecurity rules and has more checks made on them than an amateur who thinks feeding that uncooked meat to their couple of pigs (that will never leave the farm) doesn't matter, or that the funny scabs on their sheep's mouths are just cosmetic.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346486 by Sue
To answer one of Stu's questions, well regarding supermarket meat anyway!

If there was say if people got sick with an outbreak of E.Coli, and yes it has happened in beef overseas, and the powers that be traced it to mince say in a particular supermarket, they could trace back from where the meat had been purchased, the date stamp on the box/packaging would tell them what day it had been processed and then armed with that information, whose animals were killed on that day at a particular works and maybe even tie in samples taken at the works and to a particular farmers beasts. Actually E.Coli is probably not a good example because that might have been a contaminastion issue at the works, rather than a particular sick animal, but you get the idea.

At present when the animals go in and their ear tags are cut off, the hook number is related to the particular supplier. If the tag is read electronically all that data of weight and later vet inspection criteria and samples etc can be directly linked to the electronic chip via scanning and computer.

My 36 tags, RFID and Primary tags
cost $240 this year, but I got a new pen as well with that and I get the double large size with our stud name printed on the blank reverse tag, so not the econo pack!

My opinion re beef cattle being tagged is that many of them will not be killed by Nov '11, so tagging them now will save hassles re tagging them later- and at more expense-so why buy two lots of tags? Many beef weaners will be sold off next autumn to be fattened for at least another 12 months, so day old tagging is the way to go here!

Sue
Labrador lover for yonks, breeder of pedigree Murray Grey cattle for almost as long, and passionate poultry person for more years than I care to count.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346493 by PeterNZ
I was thinking again about this. And I was wondering what actually my problem is. My problem is that I just feel uncomfortable that the government collects more and more data about me and my life. This is my main issue. Can you understand that? I hope so. And on top of that I do not see any benefit. Sorry!

I just don't trust the government. And I do not believe that they have anything in mind which will help me or people like me. Too many things just benefit the big industries. So why the hell do I have to put up with it.

So what's next? FarmOnline is on the horizon. What is that then? Collecting data about my property, the purpose of my business ect. Great.Next thing we need to register our apple trees. There are diseases which spread form tree to tree. And how many kg of fruit we collect. And we need to count the eggs we get. And so on.

I know Isla this might sound cynical. But me as a person and an individual , I am scared of this. And most people just follow the herd so to speak. Nobody is asking any questions. And why would they, nobody cares about our questions.

I get frustrated meanwhile by the amount of regulations and rules. You can't do anything without being registered, having a license and getting government approval. Where does this end?

Cheers

Peter


Everything you need to make your own cheese at home
www.CottageCrafts.co.nz
[:D]LSB Members will get first order (over $10) shipping cost free. Just mention your LSB user name! [:D]

My private blog (Caution! Contains opinions and thoughts which may offend some viewers.)

Change the World! One Meal...

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346506 by TKFARMER
I put NAIT tags on my two white faces this year so I don`t have to tag them again next year.I think it is important to have a national tracing and identification system for every body not just farmers and by that I mean lsb as well. I grow beef for my freezer, not to on sell. tkf

Playing farmer on 3.5 acres. [:)][:)]

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346538 by Isla

PeterNZ;335709 wrote: ... And most people just follow the herd so to speak. ...

At least they'll be properly tagged! [}:)] :p :D

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
11 years 10 months ago #346542 by Stikkibeek
Isla wrote:

Really big farms will probably have their own tag readers. They'll know when beasts go missing when their numbers don't show up during yarding. If a farmer loses a beast and doesn't bother to find where it is, perhaps they ought to be doing something other than farming.

I seriously doubt that given the size of some of those big cattle stations that missing cattle that might have fallen over a cliff would ever be found. Those cattle are mustered from the high country towards the end of summer and a beast that died in the high country in early summer would not have much left of it to be found. Even if it could be, the farmer is not likely to make a special effort to locate it. Those big stations are hardly the same as strolling around a few hundred acres to check stock, but that doesn't make the farmer/manager a negligent farmer, who ought to be doing something other than farming.

Did you know, that what you thought I said, was not what I meant :S

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.271 seconds