golden dog

new to this

A new entrant.
Crazy question: is it ok for a Ram to mate with nis mother ie where does in breeding begin

With the same ethical standards we use as humans!

Having said that, assuming you get a healthy lamb out of the mating, you HAVE to send it to the works or homekill it, whatever sex, as NO - you do not line breed following this mating.

That's my opinion as no ram on my property ever went over his own progeny and certainly not his mother. [:0]

You may get away with it and I wouldn't suggest you abort the mating but it stops there. The sheep breeding Bible according to DiDi. LOL Others may disagree.[]

There are some people who use the ram once over his own daughters. But putting him to his grand-daughters is too much inbreeding. So I don't see how son over mother is any different. I did it once and she had gorgeous babies, but they may have been dumb luck. Didi, do you mean the offspring should never be bred from, even with an unrelated partner? I don't see why, if they're healthy?

It is in-breeding, or line-breeding, but they don't care and if there's nothing wrong with the resulting progeny, where's the problem? If the family carries something undesirable, like a dodgy gene which causes a deformity, or even bad temperament, then the result isn't so good.

If you get a good lamb from it, there's nothing wrong with keeping it for breeding with unrelated sheep.

Ruth;379589 wrote: It is in-breeding, or line-breeding, but they don't care and if there's nothing wrong with the resulting progeny, where's the problem? If the family carries something undesirable, like a dodgy gene which causes a deformity, or even bad temperament, then the result isn't so good.

If you get a good lamb from it, there's nothing wrong with keeping it for breeding with unrelated sheep.

I have had several lovely ewes over the years that have been the result of in-breeding/line-breeding. They do go back to unrelated rams.

It might pay to remember (unless the law has changed in the last few years) that is is ok to marry your first cousin but not your second or third. I might be thick but I'm still trying to work that one out.:rolleyes:

Cheers,
Ronnie

The trick is not to think of it human terms. The sheep don't.

Ronney - I think you've got it the wrong way round. You can't marry your first cousin but can second and third etc
Queen Elizabeth and Phillip are fourth cousins (just out of interest in case anybody wanted to know).
Even though I know nothing about livestock, interesting for me to read this post as I always wondered that too as I have a friend who has sheep and goats etc.

The answer is, Inbreeding begins with the closest relations and gets less the further you move away.

The closer the relationship, the more genes the offspring will share.
Whilst a certain amount of line breeding/inbreeding may be beneficial, it also increases the chances of the offspring inheriting recessive genes from both parents which may be harmful or even lethal.

The closer the relationship, the higher the percentage of inbreeding.
ie Father x daughter, Mother x son, full brother x full sister result in 25% inbreeding.

Half brother x half sister, grand dam x grandson, grand sire x grand daughter results in 12.5% inbreeding.

Having common grandparents eg cousins, results in 6.25% inbreeding.

In genetic circles, any percentage higher than 12.5% is considered undesirable as it can lead to decreased performance in future generations, reduced fertility, poorer performance and even deformities or death.

Of course many of the offspring will be perfectly normal, but as has been said earlier the results of a mating such as mother x son should not be used for further breeding, but are perfectly good for the freezer.

As a result of inbreeding of 10% or more there is a calculated expected reduction of inbreeding depression.

In cattle a 10% increase in inbreeding can result in 5% less growth, 3% less milk yield, 4% less calves born and 10% less calves weaned.

It's Linebreeding if you plan it, Inbreeding if it was an accident

My lovely Rhodesian Ridgeback was the result of line breeding, her father was also her grand father. She was perfect as were all the offspring in the litter.

We have a billy goat whose father was his half brother (son over mother). We have put him over unrelated nannies this season. We will know in a few weeks what his offspring are like. We also have a litter of four month old piglets whose father is their uncle (brother over sister). They look like good healthy pigs. Our real farmer neighbour says if it works it's called line breeding but if it causes problems it's inbreeding. As to people, I was taught that first cousins are fair game but second cousins are off limits.

if its an accident, then there is not a lot that can be done. The resulting lamb(s) from memory don't have any higher chance of deformity than any other breeding.

As Sue said (very well I might add) it is not desireable. If that is the only Ram you have, go talk to your neighbours, they might be in the same position!

I personally think you need to be so well versed in the pedigrees of animals and the likely outcomes before you attempt close line breeding. Cinsara wow that is just a little scary, did you breed your dog?

I think some may have failed to grasp that the results of inbreeding may not always be visible and that the presence of malformed off spring is probably one of the least common outcomes of inbreeding.

The Inbreeding depression mentioned is far more subtle and if continued generation after generation may well result in offspring that are harder to breed from (infertile) smaller litters in say dogs, off spring which fail to thrive, or which do not produce much milk as a mother, do not grow as well as expected and often also are not as good as either parent-so despite being called line breeding-it will not produce anything that is an improvement on its parents.

The resulting Lamb(S) are only gonna go in my Freezer when they are big enough.
That is if I go ahead with Son over Mom!!!
Hey everybody thanks for comments