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-   -   The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs (http://www.lifestyleblock.co.nz/vforum/showthread.php?t=30337)

welshie 2nd November 2011 06:57 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Inger (Post 394142)
Why not change the chicks over to Meat Bird Crumbles when the hen starts laying again after hatching out the chicks?

Because they seem to be as scarce as hen's teeth! I have never managed to source any in Hawkes Bay. [:(!]

bayrose1 2nd November 2011 08:46 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Um what is the matter with those eggs?:confused: They look normal??

spoook 2nd November 2011 08:55 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Bayrose, feed with coccidiostat in has a withholding period for meat or eggs.
Basically not fit for human consumption [:(]

Lindeggs 3rd November 2011 09:26 AM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Organix, that's a really good summary of the issues. (With a username like yours I would expect no less... [;)])

It's really worth looking into the various certification systems and what they allow and don't allow.

The chooks are part of my food chain (I don't eat them but I eat their eggs) so I use the same criteria when feeding them as I do when feeding myself and my family. That means some combination of:

  • A trusted organic certification like Demeter or BioGrow
  • and/or home grown (free of herbicides and pesticides)
  • and/or locally produced (e.g. farmers markets or swaps with neighbours)
  • and/or a trusted brand - with the level of trust changing over time as I learn about the producer and their products.

For example I am currently using Fisken's Layer Pellets because my chooks seem to thrive on them. As part of my decision-making I phoned them up and asked them some questions about things that are important to me.

They told me as much of their grain as possible is sourced in NZ and they adamantly do not use oil palm products. Their pellets do not contain animal products, which I like because it allows me to supplement my own animal products as I see fit (e.g. organic blood and bone, home-grown worms, offcuts from neighbour's fishing trips).

I also rely on word of mouth, so chatting with friends and family, and on forums like this, also informs my decision-making.

Organic certification is an important part of my decision making but it is certainly not all of it.

Sue 3rd November 2011 10:03 AM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
That is a fine set of ethics to live by lindeggs and I wish you well, however the logic behind not liking the inclusion of animal products in your poultry feed is slightly fuzzy!

The animal protein used is only usually meat and bone meal from freezing works and our livestock industry is an extensive one of grass fed sheep and beef,with minimal chemical application (as compared to feed lots overseas) and yet you are quite happy to have feed containing NZ grown grain, which will undoubtedly have been grown using fungicides and weedicides.

Unless the feed is certified Organic, then using one that does not contain animal protein, but contains conventionally grown grain does not exactly fit your reasonings!

If you supplement your birds with animal protein they will no doubt relish it. Fiskens no doubts supplements their feed with essential amino acids, replacing what is absent in the vegetable protein used.
Have you asked where the Soya bean comes from, that is no doubt the source of protein. Is it GE free and certified organic? Probably not.

Not everyone is aware of the nutritional needs of their chickens, that is why I advocate that unless you know what your birds need, and are capable of identifying disease, as in chicks on non medicated feed, I always advocate using a fully commercial diet to beginner chook keepers.

Too much protein can also cause problems-eg supplementing an already balanced diet with additional protein-eg larger and fewer eggs, especially later in the laying cycle. So what you might say! How about egg bound birds and prolapses?

homebirther1 3rd November 2011 11:51 AM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Thankyou Simkin for starting this thread, I was unaware of this until I read this. Yesterday we brought some chick starter crumbles, the Long Acre brand which is made by Inghams. Because I had read this thread I asked about the coccidiostat at RD1 (where I brought it), and they said it was fine if the laying hens eat some of it. So being assured that it would be ok, I brought it. Anyway, I still wasn't quite convinced, so I phoned up Inghams and got put through to our local Rep, she didn't know herself, did some digging and found out that it indeed DOES contain coccidiostat, and it has a 14 day withholding period for the eggs!! The Rep thanked me for the opportunity to teach her something new :). I did what I thought was the responsible thing to do and I phoned up RD1 and informed them of this, as I think people should be informed of this, and then at least be able to choose whether they feed this to their animals.

Thanks again Simkin!!

Sue 3rd November 2011 12:09 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Can I just repeat the advice that feed should be fed only to the specific age group and species for which it is intended!

It may all look the same colour, and some sales people at the various farm stores are not as well informed as they could be, so read the bag carefully and feed as instructions!

Cinsara 3rd November 2011 12:17 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue (Post 394315)
Can I just repeat the advice that feed should be fed only to the specific age group and species for which it is intended!
It may all look the same colour, and some sales people at the various farm stores are not as well informed as they could be, so read the bag carefully and feed as instructions!

And if you are new to the chick raising game and have a hen with chicks?
If you read and adhere to the instructions you will end up pulling your hair out trying to feed the chicks the crumbles and the hen the pellets and running around in a panic because it can't be done. It is perfectly fine for the mother hen to eat the crumbles too despite the intructions on the bag. It is also perfectly fine to feed chick starter for a few months despite the 6 week cut off stated on the bag.

Homebirther1 your chooks will not be harmed if they eat some of the crumble as your RD1 sales rep said, it is only the resulting eggs which are not suitable for humans to eat, you have to ask specific questions if you want a comprehensive answer.
In saying that I always eat the eggs, as the amount of crumble a laying hen can get her beak into at my place is small, and the amount transfered to the egg would be minute. The stand down for anything seems to be 14 days so the toxicidity of the medication may not be an actual problem for that long.

Cinsara 3rd November 2011 12:27 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by welshie (Post 394196)
Because they seem to be as scarce as hen's teeth! I have never managed to source any in Hawkes Bay. [:(!]

Any outlet that sells NRM can get Meatbird Crumble in for you welshie, it is as simple as adding a couple of bags onto their regular order.

Huggiechook 3rd November 2011 12:30 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
correct me if I am wrong Sue - but it was my understanding that in the case of the coccidiostat the withholding period is not actually due to the coccidiostat being toxic to humans but rather that there was concern over human pathogens developing resistance to the relevant medication?!

Sue 3rd November 2011 12:51 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Yes the witholding period for eggs, from birds fed a coccidiostat is because of residues transferring to humans. In some cases, large quantities could cause symptoms-see my link to Food Safety and Lasalocid., but most of the time it is because of a medication interfering with possible medication of humans with a similar product in the future.

Some coccidiostats are extremely toxic to other species, like dogs, horses and even turkeys. Hence the need to be careful when using medicated feed.

Because few broodies lay whilst brooding chicks the risk is pretty low so they can be weaned when Mum starts laying again. If this is perceived as a problem then feed the chicks on unmedicated Starter-and have a bottle of Coxiprol on stand by!

One of the reasons NRM has just released its new Chick Starter which includes the essential oil of Oregano, is to overcome all these problems that people have with laying hens eating baby chick feed, and wasting eggs but at the same time giving the chick protection against the parasite Coccidiosis-the number one killer of chicks! This product is effective, has a nil witholding period for eggs and meat, pathogens cannot build up resistance and is harmless to humans.

Homebirther, Simkins problem was slightly different in that it was the Layer feed that had possibly been contaminated with a coccidiostat intended for broiler feed and the responsible manufacturer had recalled the possibly affected batches when it discovered the feed was contaminated.

Lindeggs 3rd November 2011 04:08 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue (Post 394289)
That is a fine set of ethics to live by lindeggs and I wish you well, however the logic behind not liking the inclusion of animal products in your poultry feed is slightly fuzzy!
...
Unless the feed is certified Organic, then using one that does not contain animal protein, but contains conventionally grown grain does not exactly fit your reasonings!
...
Have you asked where the Soya bean comes from, that is no doubt the source of protein. Is it GE free and certified organic? Probably not.
...
Too much protein can also cause problems-eg supplementing an already balanced diet with additional protein-eg larger and fewer eggs, especially later in the laying cycle. So what you might say! How about egg bound birds and prolapses?

There are several reasons I like to control what meat products go into my chook food. The fact that I can raise my own good quality animal protein (compost worms) and feed it to my chooks ad-lib (and so fresh it's still wiggling) works fine for me.

As for the soy issue, I've settled on the Fiskens as the best I can find so far. I did ask where there soy was sourced, and it does come from overseas. As always, it's a balance between my personal/ethical beliefs and animal health. Animal health is the priority.

Right at the moment I have four different feeds in my feed bins - two are certified organic (a mash and a pellet) so I know they are GE Free, the soy has been extracted without the use of Hexane, and they are free of herbicides and pesticides. The pellet contains animal protein, the mash doesn't.

BUT my chooks don't thrive on either of them the way they do on the Fiskens pellets, so for animal husbandry reasons I have set them aside for now (I'm feeding them as an occasional wet mash until I finish the stock I have).

As my chooks have unlimited access to mixed pasture and eat a lot of green feed, I think their diet is at risk of being a little low in protein, even though I'm feeding them on commercially formulated diets.

When I feed them on 16% protein commercial feed, their eggs average approximately 60g. On 18% protein they average 65g. So I simply use the home-grown animal products to raise their overall protein intake to 16 - 18% total once the green pick is included.

Surprisingly (to me) when offered unlimited access to pelleted grains, green feed and live compost worms, they do self-regulate. They will eat a certain quantity of worms then ignore them for the rest of the day and go back to eating grass. Some days they refuse the worms entirely! There also seem to be marked seasonal variations that aren't taken into account when feeding a single commercial feed through all seasons.

I don't think my chooks (all heavy breeds) are at particular risk of prolapses. I'm monitoring them carefully for all health indicators including over- and under-sized eggs. As a newbie chook-keeper I'm learning fast and will keep adjusting my feed and healthcare regimes accordingly.

BillyTheTractor 3rd November 2011 04:25 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue (Post 394074)
Hi Btt, you raise an interesting question, I'm probably not fully informed enough to answer your question, but a little research has revealed the following.....
....So putting two and two together, I am supposing it may well affect hatching eggs laid while birds were eating the affected feed-but as 7 days witholding period is mentioned, then I imagine the effects on the hen laying the eggs are quickly resolved once it eats untreated feed again.

it's very interesting! Yes, I suspect the 7 day with holding period would knock my theory on the head!! [:D] It was just something that occurred to me in bed one night! Thanks, as ever, Sue.

Sue 3rd November 2011 06:11 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Lindeggs you correctly observed that given free choice and a self help buffet chickens can indeed adjust their consumption of protein and energy to suit their daily needs.

Just beware of the 'unlimited pasture and green feed' as it is not very nutritious, or beneficial. Some commercial free range farmers find that birds which have lots of green fibrous pasture available, especially when newly mown, tend to fill up on that, then find they haven't enough room left to top up with the ad ib pellets and consequently lose weight and reduce egg production. For this reason the rations with the higher protein 17/18% are more suitable for Free range birds, as they get more from less!

Yes you have also correctly observed the seasonal (or more correctly temperature and production) differences in appetite. Actually the commercial diet does take this into account-if the birds are allowed to eat as much of it as they want, ad lib-ie more when cold and less when warmer.
They will also eat less of a commercial ration, when that is all they get and it is not diluted by feeding scraps or wheat or greens.

Some finely tuned commercial layer flocks are actually fed different formulated rations according to their age and stage of lay which is actualy what you are finding the birds would do themselves, given the choice.

Simkin 3rd November 2011 09:31 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyTheTractor (Post 394012)
oh and on hatching rates - a wee while ago there was a thread on how poor hatching rates were - totally off base - but could it have had anything to do with the feed issues peck n lay had - we were all feeding our chooks the recalled stuff for a good while before we knew. ????


Interesting thought. I have taken 2 of my hens who were still looking after chicks for stud matings after they started to lay, then put them back in with the chicks.

All eggs were fertile but not a single one hatched! My first thought was that the chick starter crumbs are deficient in something a growing embryo needs but it could be the medication, too.

Simkin 3rd November 2011 09:37 PM

Re: The result of Medicated Chick Starter Crumbs
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sue (Post 393694)
All this negative talk about "medicated" chick feed rather amuses me. You make it sound as though it is a terrible sin to have 'medicated' feed. Coccidiosis is one of the biggest scourges of the world wide poultry flock-it is everywhere! We are darned lucky to have the ability to obtain feed over the counter which has a coccidiostat of any kind, to control the biggest parasitic killer of chickens!


If the instructions are followed (feed Chick Starter only to young non laying birds) then there is absolutely no problem!
Now there has been a breakthrough, yet another preventaive drug to be included in the feed has been found!

It's about options being taken away. Two of my banty mothers have re-started to lay when the chicks were just 3 weeks old. To avoid 'feeding medicated chick starter to laying hens' I would have needed psychic abilities to foresee (when the chicks were just 1 week old) that their mother would restart to lay in two weeks time, remove the chicks from the hen and hand raise them so that I can eat the eggs once she starts to lay again. Or feed the chicks layer pellets from 1 week onwards[:0]

It's good that medicated feed is available - saves many a newbie a lot of disappointment.

It will take weeks before the new NRM stuff will be available - the old stock needs to be sold first:(


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