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Telly
22nd May 2008, 01:37 PM
Ola, my togg doe, is really sick. I noticed her scouring this morning so rang the vet and went in to get drench etc (given my recent experience with another goat). By the time I got back from town she was lying down and unresponsive. I took her straight in to the vet but it's not looking good. She's had saline and a shot of antibiotics but is much the same. She's still there and they'll give her soem more and I have to ring in a couple of hours. As of 3pm yesterday she was fine, pooing normally etc. I tethered her out to graze yesterday but have checked the area and there's nothing other than grass and broom there. I feel that the vet's heart isn't really in saving my goat and trying to work out what's wrong with her, so any suggestions as to what to suggest to her would be great. It's a pity it isn't the other vet, who does more of the farm stuff, as he's got a much nicer manner. I was pretty upset when I took her in and the vet looked at her and I could tell she thought it was a waste of time. When I commented that it's always the ones you pay money for that get sick, she looked at me and said increduously 'pay money?' like she thought it was crazy to pay money for a goat. She has goats herself though. That upset me because even though she's valuable because I paid for a registered goat, she's even more valuable to me because she's the most gorgeous goat. Sorry about the rant, a bit upset and really worried about poor Ola. Suggestions as to what might cause her to go down so quickly appreciated.

sundaysbest
22nd May 2008, 01:48 PM
Oh Telly I am so sorry for your news... fingers, toes, feathers and hooves crossed for you here at our place.
Sundays xx

maggies mum
22nd May 2008, 01:54 PM
Oh heck! Fingers crossed here! Can't you get hold of the other vet!

Birman Babe
22nd May 2008, 01:56 PM
Oh heck, thats no good.
Damn goats; they can be such a worry at times.
Any news????

Telly
22nd May 2008, 01:57 PM
It's bit awkward because it's the same practice. I thought I might ask via the receptionist if I could have his opinion too. He could well be out all day visiting farms anyway.

Pumpkingirl
22nd May 2008, 01:59 PM
Telly, I'm so sorry, it could something like Barbers Pole which can be devastating and very quick.

If that's the case, you would see severe anaemia (check inside of eyelids and gums, should be pink, not white) and you would need to drench with something that is specific to barbers pole. However it's so quick, it might not be enough.

How old is she? When did you last drench her? What with and how much?
Is she moving at all or paralysed? Can she lift her head? Swallow? What was her temperature? High, as in fever, or low? Put your finger in her mouth - is it warm? or cold?

The only other possibilities could be massive infection (something like listeriosis) or there is also a shortage of vitamin B which looks exactly like listeriosis.

I'm really sorry, it's so frightening and upsetting to be in that position, I hope you get some good news soon.

maggies mum
22nd May 2008, 02:01 PM
Nothing awkward about it at all Telly mate, demand the best care for your goat, I would. After all the service isn't for free is it! Hope she pulls through

Telly
22nd May 2008, 02:06 PM
She is very cold. It rained last night but she had shelter and a wool coat. The vet checked her gums and they're normal. She was last drenched between 2 and 3 months ago. The vet said it was strange she'd gone down so quickly. She's 10 months old. When I spoke to the vet on the phone she said she was salivating a lot but that could be because she wasn't swallowing it down and was producing saliva as normal. What's listeriosis? I would just like the vet to suggest more things that it could be. She's doesn't seem to be very proactive in working out what's wrong. Maybe I'm being unfair as she's obviously the expert in sick animals and I'm not. I'm just gutted that if one of them had to get sick it's her, my future milking goat.[:(] Needless to say, I'm not getting much study done on my child-free day.

Pumpkingirl
22nd May 2008, 02:06 PM
It's bit awkward because it's the same practice. I thought I might ask via the receptionist if I could have his opinion too. He could well be out all day visiting farms anyway.

Telly, don't be embarrassed or feel awkward about getting a second opinion. Any vet worth their salt will not be upset. Do what's best for you and your animal and if you offend her, well who cares? If she's not going to take you seriously, why would you use her in future anyway? You're paying her $120+ an hour, to give you an attitude? Would you accept it from any other professional?

Pumpkingirl
22nd May 2008, 02:12 PM
Listeriosis is a bacterial infection that can happen very quickly (within 12-24 hours) but it has very specific symptoms. There would be a high temperature for example.

Before an animal goes down it starts to circle as it walks, as its brain swells.

This slowly causes paralysis. The animal will be lying down on the ground, but may move its legs on one side as if walking. If you sit her up (lean her against a bale of hay or something) she will probably turn her head right around so it's on her belly. She will start drooling out the side of her mouth, and she may lose the ability to swallow altogether as the paralysis continues.

Listeriosis and a vitamin B deficiency both have similar symptoms - but listeriosis requires massive amounts of ABs and has little chance of survival, whereas vitamin b deficiency means they need IV vitamin B.

That's why I was asking about symptoms, anything you may have seen her do that seemed odd.

cowvet
22nd May 2008, 02:15 PM
My personal opinion would be ...if the animal is as flat as a pancake then the most important thing at this stage is supportive treatment - and fast.
By the time an animal is as "flat as a pancake" all diseases start to look the same. If the animal has severe diarrhoea and is dehydrated then the emergency treatment is the same regardless of the cause - IV fluids +/- antibiotics. Keeping the animal alive in the short term allows you to then start working out what is wrong with it.

What was the diagnosis on your last goat.

Barbers Pole - extremely unlikely in Otago. Other worms will also cause an animal to crash if the subtle warning signs have been missed.

Pumpkingirl
22nd May 2008, 02:16 PM
Barbers Pole - extremely unlikely in Otago. Other worms will also cause an animal to crash if the subtle warning signs have been missed.

Ah, I didn't notice where they were, thanks CV

Telly
22nd May 2008, 02:22 PM
PG - We had a goat die when we first got them - two years ago - and that might have been what she had. She had paralysis and there was neurological damage. This is quite different. My first thought was what happened to that goat but Ola's eyes look very different.

CV - Thanks, I guess that's what the vet is doing, giving her fluids and antibiotics. I think it was the attitude she was projecting that upset me. I felt that she was negative from the start. Even if the goat's chances aren't good I felt she could have had a better manner. I'm not suggesting she should hide the truth but be more positive about trying to do something. Or at least explain to me that they need to do a and b before they can look c and d. I'm hoping that when I ring back she'll be making some progress. Will give it another half hour then ring.

eelcat
22nd May 2008, 02:23 PM
fingers crossed she makes it

Telly
22nd May 2008, 02:25 PM
CV - would really bad worms cause that sudden a decline? The vet hasn't given her anything for worms - I didn't get to give her the dose I'd gone to get and the vet said she wouldn't swallow anyway. She was groaning when she was lying on the table and her side seemed swollen. The vet said she wasn't bloated though.

cowvet
22nd May 2008, 02:32 PM
CV - Thanks, I guess that's what the vet is doing, giving her fluids and antibiotics. I think it was the attitude she was projecting that upset me. I felt that she was negative from the start. Even if the goat's chances aren't good I felt she could have had a better manner. I'm not suggesting she should hide the truth but be more positive about trying to do something. Or at least explain to me that they need to do a and b before they can look c and d. I'm hoping that when I ring back she'll be making some progress. Will give it another half hour then ring.

Rest assured then if the vet is treating the animal appropriately then her attitude is not likely to make the outcome any different.
I have treated animals when I have been in the foulest of moods and it hasn't killed any of them yet[;)] My moods can be foul but they aren't fatal.
We all have bad days - I hope this is just one of those for your vet and she is not normally like this, as people skills and personality are as important as veterinary skills when it comes to reputation. But - on the other hand people skills and personality doesn't save lives!

Good luck and keep us posted.
Diagnosis on other goat? Faecal egg count result?
Are your pigs on the same area as the goats and are they lepto vaccinated?

Telly
22nd May 2008, 02:37 PM
Pigs are in an enclosed pen and they are separated by about 10m. Haven't been vacinated. I don't like this vet much, much prefer the guy, so it might just be her manner in general. I'm just a bit sensitve to it being worried about my poor Ola. Thanks for your advice. It really helps when you're worried and waiting for news to talk to other goat people. My friend was very sympathetic but couldn't offer much advice. I will ring the vet soon and keep you all posted. In the meantime I am distracting myself by reading about the budget.

Telly
22nd May 2008, 02:39 PM
Other goat is doing well. I talked to the vet nurse this morning - when I thought Ola's only problem was worms - and had come up with a plan for drenching and testing the goats so that we have a proper regime. Tomorrow's job was going to be taking the two big goats in for a weighing so we can be more accurate with drenching.

maggies mum
22nd May 2008, 02:41 PM
Reading the budget?? Blimey do you need to be depressed anymore!??? ;)

Telly
22nd May 2008, 02:43 PM
Will I can't feel guilty about the sick state of the economy, it's completely out of my control. Going to ring the vet now.

Kate
22nd May 2008, 02:54 PM
I just caught up with this Telly....I hope the news from the vet is good news. It's hard with goats as they can go down so quickly. I imagine the vet is ruling out things to start with - pneumonia, worms, etc and will have more idea by now.

Please let us know what happens and I've got everything crossed for you here...

Good luck
Kate

Telly
22nd May 2008, 02:59 PM
Ola's died. Vet is going to do autopsy. Feeling pretty rotten.

Kate
22nd May 2008, 03:02 PM
I'm so sorry Telly - I've been through it a few times recently and I know how rotten you are feeling [:(][:(][:(]

Llew
22nd May 2008, 03:06 PM
Bugger.

gemini kiwi
22nd May 2008, 03:08 PM
I'm so sorry. Its not been a good week for the goat folks. I hope the Vet is able to determine the cause of death.

maggies mum
22nd May 2008, 03:08 PM
Awww so sorry Telly :(

eelcat
22nd May 2008, 03:08 PM
how very sad - hope you find out what it was - the not knowing is not good.

Telly
22nd May 2008, 03:10 PM
Dread the thought of telling the boys - they are at school/kindy at the moment. The youngest in particular loved her because he could put his arm around her and she wasn't as big and scary to him as the others.

gaalburn
22nd May 2008, 03:11 PM
Telly ...... a Vit B shot for all the goats would not hurt.
Duoject B shot would help as well not both to gether though.

I think that worming goats is hard on them and they need to get the
enzymes in the gut again........

Feed them with yoghurt and a egg mixed in once each day for a week.

The culture in the yoghurt will help the gut and the egg protein.\\

Hope all turns out better for you.

Cheers

Gaalburn.

gemini kiwi
22nd May 2008, 03:14 PM
Gaalburn,
Telly's goat just died.

Llew
22nd May 2008, 03:16 PM
Gaalburn means for the surviving goats I think.

Birman Babe
22nd May 2008, 03:17 PM
Oh dear, so sorry she didnt make it.
Lets hope the autopsy shows up something conclusive..at least it wont leave you wondering!!

terralee
22nd May 2008, 03:18 PM
So sorry for your loss of Ola telly ...you did your best as soon as you could ..
I hope the vet can tell you why.
It is always our special ones for some reason.

gaalburn
22nd May 2008, 03:18 PM
Yes I realise that GK Im sory .,

I was thinking of the other goats that she has. 3 Boers.

It would be a good pick me up for them Telly.

Gaalburn.

Telly
22nd May 2008, 03:24 PM
At the moment I feel like the worst goatherd in the world. There's so much I don't know about keeping them healthy. It seems crazy that I've got a buck here trying to make more goats when I can't seem to look after the ones I've got.[:(] I'm especially gutted about Ola, not just because she was so affectionate, but because I was really looking forward to milking her and making cheese etc. I'm glad I decided to have an autopsy done as I do want to know if there's something on our property that killed her or something I could have prevented. Although I'm hoping it was something I couldn't have done anything about anyway.

gemini kiwi
22nd May 2008, 03:30 PM
Yes I realise that GK Im sory .,

I was thinking of the other goats that she has. 3 Boers.

It would be a good pick me up for them Telly.

Gaalburn.

Oh Thanks for all the tips Gaalburn- I'm busy jotting all the info down, it seemed to happen so fast, I hope the Vet has some answers.

Pumpkingirl
22nd May 2008, 03:36 PM
Telly, I'm so sorry for your loss[:(].

I feel the same way, and for me losing an animal never gets any easier.

It's good to get an autopsy, that will help your heart immensely, so you can find out whether it was just one of those things, or if you can help your other goats avoid the same fate.

Big hugs from all of us.

HarryPotter
22nd May 2008, 03:36 PM
Hi Telly,
Well firstly, I am sorry to learn that Ola has died. I know only too well what it feels like to loose an animal and it is worse when it is a favourite or a much loved pet.
Goats are interesting animals in terms of their reaction to illness and it never ceases to amaze me how quickly they can go down and succumb. One day they are fine and the next they are dead!
I have lost my fair share of goats over the years and it is very often the fattest, seemingly fittest animal that goes first.
Secondly, diagnosis is sometimes quite difficult and you have done the right thing by having an autopsy done.
Don't beat yourself up, if you look at the circumstances, there was not much you could do other than what you did.
HP

maggies mum
22nd May 2008, 03:36 PM
Telly even when you think you are doing all you can and more, they can still up and die on you.
Sometimes these learning curves seem all uphill sometimes!

Pumpkingirl
22nd May 2008, 03:39 PM
Don't beat yourself up, if you look at the circumstances, there was not much you could do other than what you did.HP

Hear, hear, very true words.

Andrea
22nd May 2008, 03:39 PM
If it was listeriosis or goat polio or any of the clostridial (sp??) diseases, even the ones you can vaccinate against doesn't give you 100% protection all the time, and the micro-organisms which can cause most of them are in the soil and in the environment and transmissable by birds, rats, possums and other vermin, so unless you keep them locked in a hermetically sealed facility, there's no way to keep it all out. It's one of the risks, unfortunately, and the odd thing does cause such pain when a lovely animal dies. I'm really sorry to hear about it, Telly (have sent you a PM too).

Andrea
Oxford

cowvet
22nd May 2008, 03:44 PM
The very best thing to "reseed the gut" of a ruminant with good bacteria is to grab some cud out of the mouth of one healthy animal (from the same group/on the same feed) and shove it down the gob of the animal you want to treat. The bacteria in the gut are specific for the type of feed they are on (and why they get gut upsets on sudden changes of diet).

Telly
22nd May 2008, 03:49 PM
I think I'm kind of in shock because it was so out of the blue. She seemed normal yesterday and then this morning was so sick. Someone I know commented about always thinking goats were really hardy and eat anything kind of animals but since knowing our goats realises that they aren't garbage disposal units at all but have particular needs and can get sick if they have the wrong thing like any other creature. I do feel consoled by the fact that Ola's symptoms were very different from the first goat we lost two years ago (only six weeks into goat keeping). The vet even checked the notes on this. I'm very tempted, despite the cost, of sending things away for more tests if the vet doesn't find anything with the autopsy. I want to eliminate the possibility that there is something on the property. I guess at least it wasn't the buck that isn't my goat. Better go and get the boys and break the news.

Thanks, Andrea. Got your message and have replied. That would be good.

cowvet
22nd May 2008, 04:30 PM
Great idea to get a post mortem done.

With the recent epidsode on the other goat you do need to get this sorted. No doubt they will be looking closely at parasite issues given the recent history of the other goat, Ola's age, species and time since her last drench. Sometimes this can be seen with the naked eye with the damage in the gut.
Further down the line would be histology tests on the brain (microscope for things like B1 deficiency (polio), listeria, clostridial etc.

Keep us posted

The Kats Place
22nd May 2008, 04:34 PM
So very sorry for you loss. Sorry also that you have to take your children through the whole thing, it breaks you heart all over again, explaining to them and watching them come to terms with it all.

Louise W
22nd May 2008, 04:42 PM
So sorry Telly - Try not to beat yourself up too much over it. Good luck with your other goats.

Telly
22nd May 2008, 05:02 PM
We've already decided to only get the vet's autopsy and not go along the lines of other send-away tests. OH will collect her from town shortly and get the vet's report. He's also volunteered to dig the hole for me. Kids are ok. Three year old keeps repeating that 'Kasia isn't dead' That's the one that was sick last week and she's 'his' goat. He knows that mum's sad because her goat died though. I'm planning to find out more about the various possibilitites mentioned here so I know more about them all. That would be good in the tips' file on each kind of animal, likely diseases and links to good sites for more detail.

LongRidge
22nd May 2008, 07:12 PM
Sorry that I'm late but (even) my advice would not have saved her .....
Drenches last/give protection for about SEVEN DAYS. After that, any worms that they injest will grow rapidly inside the animal (unless it has antibodies against worms).
Autumn and spring are the DANGER periods for worms in NZ. With moisture the eggs in the pasture hatch and grow rapidly, and the moist, rapidly growing grass makes them climb to where the grazing animals can get them.
Goats are very poor at developing worm antibodies, and so are young animals. A young goat is therefore very unlikely to have developed any, let alone a good, antibody resistance.
So .... if your other goats are poo-ey then they need drenching. BUT put them back onto the pasture they were on. If they are not poo-ey then DO NOT drench them, but check them daily and drench as soon as they get loose. Do not drench the ones that don't need it.
Remember that levamisol is VERY poisonous to all animals, but especially goats, so try to use a drench without levamisol in it for the goats. Also, drench goats at 1 1/2 times as much as you would a sheep of the same weight.

Telly
22nd May 2008, 07:38 PM
I'm going to go and talk to the farming vet tomorrow and sort out a plan. This morning, before I knew how sick she was, I had already decided to take the other goats in to get them properly weighed so that I can drench accurately as I find it hard to estimate their weight for doses. If anyone can point me to a good site/book/thread with information about worms so that I can learn from this I would appreciate it. She did have worms but whether that killed her or whether it lowered her resistance to something else is not known. She's buried now with the sort of tree over her that she would have loved to get into. Another part of our plan of action after this is to ask the neighbour if we can properly fence some of his land we've been using to run the goats. We had to stop using it since the newest boer arrived in December because she could get out of the electric fence. We would now like to fence it properly so that we can use it. Will do him a favour too as the goats will clear his land of broom. Why put them back onto the same pasture LR? I thought you were supposed to keep them off it.

LongRidge
22nd May 2008, 07:54 PM
Kate will be along soon to point you to the article by Clive Dalton about worms but....
They are put back onto the same pasture so that if any worms have survived the drenching because they are anthelmintic resistant or have developed resistance, the animal will also eat some worms that are NOT resistant. Hopefully, any resistant worms will mate with unresistant ones and make eggs that are unresistant. The putting-onto-clean-pasture theory has been well disproven for a couple of years now.
Be aware that most vets have exceedingly little experience in goats, and consider them to be an inferior sort of a sheep. However, there is not much that applies to sheep that also applies to goats, so ask the vet if he is actually able to give advice based on experience.
The easiest way to weigh a tame-ish goat is to put the digital bathroom scales into a plastic bag so the dial is visible, get someone to weigh themself, get that person to catch the goat and weigh it and him together, then subtract the persons weight. This is the goats weight.

HarryPotter
22nd May 2008, 09:49 PM
This may help Telly...a thread I posted a while back.

http://www.lifestyleblock.co.nz/vforum/showthread.php?t=7697&highlight=goat+weight+chart