Anyone game? The annual CATTLE ASSESSMENT thread.

[Isla]

Post your favourite animal or two and anyone can constructively criticise or ask questions and any of us might learn something new.

You need to take your photos at about the animal's shoulder height from the side (or front or rear if that's what you're after) and with good light. Bright sunshine which throws shadows isn't very useful, but often late afternoon sunshine can be, when it's warm and low. Early morning will give equally nice light. Head up is better than down and grazing, although that's not always very easy to get.

I'll have to go out and take some photos to start this off, but feel free to post in the mean time!

[hilldweller]

Hmmm... well since the rules of entry say nothing about having to pose on flat ground, I will go and consult with my cattle when this heatwave passes.

[Isla]

Rules? They were to helpfully guide those who thought they could get useful photos of black animals in strong sunshine on tiny cellphone cameras.

[digby]

OK here we go.. this the a dexter cow 2 year old

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...12083Small.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...12086Small.jpg

We took her to the Waikato Show in November .. I'll tell you if/where she was placed after the verdict

[hilldweller]

Originally Posted by Isla

Rules? They were to helpfully guide those who thought they could get useful photos of black animals in strong sunshine on tiny cellphone cameras.

So was it you who persuaded my financial controller to approve the camera purchase?

[hilldweller]

That's a very content looking cow Digby. Gorgeous glossy coat How tall is she roughly?

[digby]

Son leading her is about 5'11"
That is her calf with the other son
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a3...LydiaSmall.jpg

[beedee]

Well she certainly fits to the size of the breed.. the barrel circumf is the same as the length so good proportion. legs short but not stumpy.. straight back and sturdy keel.. great coat and general condition.. Are they allowed the dishy nose??? and not being able to see the rest of the ring entrants Id say she is very much to breed.. so got first or second at least if not champion!!!!

[Inger]

She looks in excellant health Digby. I'd hazzard a guess that you didn't beat the Charming Stud? She's a very well filled out 2 year old though. Either you've got a very good supply of grass, or you've got her birthdate wrong. How old is her calf? Pity he was shy and didn't want us to see his face.

[digby]

Beedee - yeah her face does look rather dishy, it doesn't look that bad in real life!
Inger - the calf is a heifer and was born in August, Jezebel has always been a "good doer"

[Isla]

Nice little cow. As a dual purpose cow, how's her udder for milking? Or do you keep them only as beef animals? If so my comments are that to me she has a rather short appearance where I've indicated by the line from her hooks (those big bones we generally call the hips) to her pins. She looks very slight where I've pointed the arrow, which for a beef animal in excellent condition, isn't very positive.

Do you have a fairly low stocking rate? She's in damned good condition for a heifer with a calf which appears a good size relative to her own.

I just have to do a couple of things and will be back with some photos.

[Sue]

Yes, nice solid little Dexter cow,especially for a two year old. Much more of a beefy type than the Dexters I have seen at shows around here.

If we are being critical-and I know how hard it is to get the perfect cow-I would question the tail setting. It looks kind of stuck on from a funny angle!

I have read and discussed quite a lot about tail settings and their relevance to easy calving and the sometime conflict between the 'ideal show topline' which terminates at the tail, and the ease with which a cow calves. Look at the tail settings of buffalo and bison-which have to calve unassisted-or die!

[hilldweller]

Not having a buffalo or bison handy, I'm wondering if you could explain that comment a bit more please Sue?

[sod]

Hilldweller me lost too

[beedee]

Yes Im a little confused about the tail stuck on comment, also. Im guessing that she ate sooo much as a calf the tail was constantly up to let the overflow out.. since she doesnt have long legs to carry the excess..

[Isla]

The tail appears to jut out from the line of the spine. I've had some which do it too and I don't like that setting. I think those other species have tails which slope down from the spine; none ever jut upwards from the line of the back.

[hilldweller]

OK here's some of the WBs, hunting out clover amongst the thistles and rushes

Heddwyn (3yo, one of Mamma Cow's many daughters)
Ibby (2yo and hopefully in calf for the first time, another one of MC's daughters)
Three of the heifer calves - Kappa (sentimental favourite because she's Holly's sister), Kamelot, and Karrie (daughter of Fatty the Freight Train and a MC granddaughter)
Then two pics of Knight. If I'd kept a bull calf entire this year he would have been it - any thoughts on whether the rubber ring was a good idea LOL?
And lastly Ifan, the poor little early calf who couldn't stand LOL, now 2yo.

[Isla]

Some of my cattle are in pretty light condition still, after the winter, but some of these are some of the better-covered individuals.

Isla, 10 years old:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...V/Islaside.jpg

Irene, 10 years old and no calf at present (Neospora abortion):
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9.../Ireneside.jpg

542 looked like this in March two years ago and I was tempted not to keep her because she was so odd looking. I kept her because I know her family:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9.../542-24Mar.jpg
She now looks like this, with a fast-growing well-covered little calf at foot:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/IslaV/542left.jpg

Another of the two-year heifers - two much fat on her and not enough going into her calf, I think, but I like her conformation and condition:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/IslaV/525side.jpg

Isla's granddaughter: an angular creature, but produces some very nice-looking progeny:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/IslaV/Demside.jpg

A yearling I particularly like, 572:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v93/IslaV/572side.jpg

Feel free to pull them apart or ask questions.

[Sue]

Great to see some of your Welsh Blacks HD! I like the look of this seasons heifers. I find it quite hard to pick between calves unless there is some glaringly obvious structural fault! My pick of the 3 would be Karrie.

Having been around cattle talk, Show rings, experienced cattle people etc one tries to pick up on the comments. You might not always agree with the comments but often a judge will pick on a particular point that you may not have previously noticed as being important that gets you thinking.

In September we had the prividge of presenting 4 yearling heifers to a panel of student judges who were taught what they should be looking for, then had to place the animals, speak on the microphone to those present on their findings and reasonings, and then an experienced judge placed and spoke about them. We all learned a bit that day-and we were there just to present the animals-who I might add had to stand in the ring for nearly 2 hours while this was going on!

One photo is very hard to form an opinion on one animal-how they stand can greatly influence the appearance of their structure. I would like to see another photo of Ifan, standing clear of long grass and on a level surface.
I'm just looking at top line (has he got a dippy back or is that just how he is standing?) Extra long backs can sometimes give this appearance. Question is will it be strong enough to last a lifetme of breeding and jumping on and off cows?! A long back is good from the point that is where the expensive cuts of meat are, but it can make the structure weak.
We have a long backed cow that looks totally unconnected between fore and aft ends-she is gangly and rather too big. It was her daughter that had to have the caesarian due to narrow hips-although Liz has had 8 unassisted calvings herself. It is a feature we will try not to encourage.

Ifans tail setting is different again from the Dexter! The tail itself starts lower down and his hips poke up higher than the tail head.

If you look at photos of water buffalo or even the Bos Indicus breeds like Brahman and Zebu you will see their tail settings are lower than the spine, it sort of dips down and it start back between the pelvic bones. The Bos Taurus breeds-all the cooler temperature domesticated breeds tend to have tails which fall at right angles to the spine.
Show standards tend to dictate that the spine from the neck to the tail is straight "a straight top line" and the tail falls at a right angles. Often the hair that sticks out from the centre of the tail is clipped like a Mohican haircut to accentuate this fact! But that is not saying that fashion in the show ring is always good for the breed! Todays judges should be looking for practicality as well as aesthetics and being pleasing to the eye.
Many of the Judges we have come under tend to have practical comments about the particular breeds requirements and fitness for the purpose for which the breed was developed. Heart girth, foot structure, muscularity in beef breeds and tail settings as well as the usual udders and male appendages are also required to be functional!

Here is a photo of two very different tail settings. The grey brown cow has a more typical tail setting-ie right angles to her backbone. The silver cow has a tail set right into her bum, I've seen worse-but this is more the buffalo look and meant for easier calving.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...cessandR16.jpg

The sloping angle from hips to pins can also be seen.
A tail which sticks upwards from the end of the backbone is an undesirable trait-some breeds have much more prominent tail heads that others!
A tail that is set too far back in the butt is also undesirable. A more droopy tail setting (as seen in the buffalo) is an indication of easier calving, but as always you need to be wary of extremes. Cowvet may be able to add to the tail setting desirability with her wealth of calving experiences!!?

I would say that your 3 year old had a good tail setting HD, good neck length and a reasonable top line,perhaps she is going to be another good breeder for you All the calves look nice and square, plenty of meat and I would have thought that little steer would have made a good bull

[Sue]

So while I was writing Isla cows popped up! Isla and Irene the 10 year olds are good honest well built cows that fit the job they are there for

Nothing extreme in the way of legs, shoulders and size. They have good udders for their age, having been knocked around by many calves over the years. I would expect Irenes teats to be a little on the large size for a new calf though?!
542 has earned her place in the herd, always a gamble to give a calf a chance when you're not sure-but her condition and the confirmation she is doing a good job of rearing her first calf confirms the descision to keep her for the first test anyway! She has a nicely shaped udder for a 2 year old too.

Now Islas daughter is one of those cows that probably puts everything into her calf. A bit more condition on her bones would make her look a totaly different cow-but she is doing what you hope you bred the cows for-making grass into milk to turn off a good weaner. Hopefully she picks up once the calf is weaned and gets through the winter with just enough cover to keep warm and doesn't put it all into the calf in utero, making it too big to be born, but big enough to get up and into the milk bar as soon as possible.

Where is the extra fat on the other 2 year old-not around her tail anyway? Yes I think her conformation is good too

Nice photos of black cows by the way-mine never seem to show up that blue highlight like yours-and yes I have 6 black ones-must be the sunshine up there that puts highlights in their coats!

[hilldweller]

Here's a water buffalo link from google images. I think it illustrates Sue's description? http://www.hanie.com/images/7th-RRFS...er-Buffalo.jpg

[Sue]

He he, yes, talk about extreme! I looked for a few pics, but they were more head on!

[Sue]

OK I've picked on others so here are todays pictures for assessment
Firstly Xalt, a 6 year old with her 4th calf Dijon. Caught her today for the first time in a year-she is going to Levin Show with her son-in 2 1/2 weeks time-luckily she remembered how to tie up and walk without dragging me-she is a +700kg cow
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...30Dec08003.jpg
Bum view-tail setting well-could be better for show purposes!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...30Dec08019.jpg
With her 147 day old calf, weighed 282kgs on Sunday.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...30Dec08011.jpg
Xalts calf from last year Cherry, now aged 16 months
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...30Dec08008.jpg

My main criticism of this family as they are short in the neck! Or their head carriage is a bit low. I like to see the poll (top of the head)carried a bit higher than their back. I know its a bit hard to show in a photo or when they are eating. By the way the bull calf and the Cherry are full brother and sister!

Here is another heifer 17 mth heifer, Clover, daughter of Yarrow.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...30Dec08004.jpg
and her full sister Dandelion, who has been in Calf Kindy for 2 weeks learning to be haltered and led!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...30Dec08010.jpg

These latter two carry their heads higher. Last year Cherry beat Clover in the heifer calf class, but I like Clover the better of the two now. The two heifers weighed 506kgs and 530kgs respectively on Sunday, they are a month apart in age.

[Isla]

Hd, I think I like Knight better than Ifan. What is their respective parentage? Your heifer calves look very nice - funny how those older heifers can take so long to shed their winter hair. I have a similar situation here, in some families.

Originally Posted by Sue

... I would expect Irenes teats to be a little on the large size for a new calf though?

They are. It is her major fault. However her calves do seem to manage to feed alright, even though I spend their first day worrying if they will do so.

Originally Posted by Sue

... Where is the extra fat on the other 2 year old-not around her tail anyway? Yes I think her conformation is good too

It's all relative! Most of my heifers are looking pretty thin at the moment, growing their calves alright, but not quite back in the condition they were before they calved. 525 is probably better now than she was then! It's just a shame that her family appear to manage less calf growth than the others - which probably contributes nicely to her own condition. Around here at present she looks fat. Amongst your herd she'd look like she's in need of a good meal.

I really like seeing your cattle, Sue. There's something in the shoulder set which is indicated by the carriage of the head - is it straightness in the shoulder which means they can't carry it up? Except I can't see that their shoulders show that as an issue.

As you implied earlier, a bit of fat under the skin will even out a lot of bumps. I end up feeling a bit embarrassed about my thin cows when we do these threads, except that our calf growth rates are usually pretty similar and I guess our cattle do their jobs in quite different environments.

There are a couple of things I remember being quite struck by between our two herds: one is that the tail settings of our cattle are quite different (in general) and that mine have great wide Kikuyu bellies and yours are all as beef cattle should appear - bellies not much visible from behind their muscly rears.

Mr Priest (Cattle Guru) used to talk about looking for muscle in their upper forelegs as a good indicator of overall muscularity; I still can't spot it. But I do keep being led away by the jump muscle over the stifle joint.

Now I'm going out to look at rear ends and make cryptic notes in my book about vulval mucous and any interesting behaviour I may see. I did a fabulous insem on Irene this evening, so am now hoping that not only will that be successful in achieving pregnancy, but also that she'll be able to carry this one through to term.

[beedee]

I want to know how you guys/guyesses manage to get the right angle straight on photo and how long it takes you and do you have another person there to encourage the look ahead etc.. I spent 15 mins trying to get one of mother and calf in the right position but Luna esp told her calf to run around to the other side, and when he was my side he would go check to see if any more milk was available.
I had... until this topic thought the raised tail was the better delivery shape.. but on thinking [ no the firebrigade didnt come out] guess the dropped tail would mean a more rounded pelvis shape at the outlet. rather than my thought of a high tail stick on meaning more room, since the relaxin hormone rises it for the moment anyway.. something to ponder over, since the high tails have never had a problem with delivery even the large calves!!!
I have sent photos via tiggs of my motly crew..as I still have no idea how to do it directly.. but did not have the ability to have a clear blue sky behind and well standing stock they were all playing up..
Ohh I cant see any faults in your cattle anyway Sue..